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Author | Topic: Evolution or Creation | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So does that mean that if a crime is committed and there were no witnesses, that we can't figure out what happened? I guess you reject the field of forensics, then?
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Applaud you finally posted a post with some substance.
How could it be that, in such an open, self-critical system as scientific peer-review is, certain Biologists could manage to lie and not get caught? You are not going to tell me there have been no frauds are you? I did not say they would not get caught. There have been several frauds that I have seen you mention a few of. Those got caught. How many have not? Problem is when they happen they never go away.Just like problems created by some religious fanatics fundys as you call them. But I guess my question would have to be how many of these scientist you are talking about are really working on the ToE, or creation. I would think they are concerned with trying to come up with new foods, new diets, new medicines, new cures, new technology, new fuels, new products all the thing's that will bring them real fame and fortune. If as you say they all accept the ToE why question it.
But you asked, ICANT, "How can anyone believe in the Theory of Evolution?". Get your dead horse out and start beating on him again if you are going to continue to beat on this one. The first single cell life form HAD TO EVOLVE FROM SOMETHING.I know you say no no no no no no no no evolution did not start until after that life appeared. You can say no all you want to it does not change the FACT that, that life form had to EVOLVE from something. It did not just happen. My question stands "How can anybody believe in the theory of evolution?" Would you care to answer this question beginning from just before the first single cell life form appeared, rather than jump on every little or big mistake I make? How do you expect to convince me of anything by jumping up and down throwing a temper tantrum as you do in most posts? My question is not "How can anybody believe in evolution"=change in things over time. I have stated many times I believe things change over time. I also believe that by selective breeding and pollination, you can produce fabulous animals and plants.
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Quetzal Member (Idle past 5902 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
I am saying there have been many frauds that have been caught. Interestingly, to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been all that many biologists (I can only think of examples like the mammoth DNA scandal awhile back) who've done something like this. And they have ALWAYS been caught - usually really quickly. As nator mentioned, one of the first things that happens with a new discovery or idea is that everybody else in a relevant or related subdiscipline tries to either replicate the data (through observation or experimentation), or tries to find fault with the idea (along the lines of "this is pretty out there, is there a better explanation for what was observed?"). Why do you think things like the Mungo Lake data is/was so controversial? And not really accepted by the specialists? Because sample contamination is a better explanation for the really odd results than a whole new theory of human origins. (If you don't know the story, I can give a brief precis).
How many are there that have not been caught. Given what I know of how the peer-review process in biology works, not many if any at all. We have LOTS of controversies, competing ideas, "battles of the data", arguments over interpretations, etc. However, that is the sign of a healthy science in action, not fraud. It took Margulis ten years (or thereabouts, I don't remember exactly) to get the idea that some cellular organelles in eukaryotes may hve been derived from symbiosis rather than developing over time via RM/NS. And she had really good data. It's something of a truism in science that the more radical or novel the claim, the more scrutiny it will undergo - and the more vociferous the arguments. Doesn't leave a lot of room for somebody trying to sneak falsified data or an agenda-driven idea into the mix. Do you have any specific examples in mind - in biology, 'cause that's what evolution is all about - or is your contention just a sort of general comment based on supposition, or something someone mentioned to you in passing?
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 764 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
You see I have never seen one shred of evidence that the big bang happened. Not that I have not read a lot about it. Those two sentences don't go together, somehow. I'd think it would be quite difficult to read a lot about the Big Bang without having seen at least some mention of cosmological-scale redshifts or the microwave background radiation. Heck, ICANT, you've seen microwave background radiation - we old geezers that grew up before cable TV all remember the "snow" on channels we didn't get strongly. A significant part of that is MBR.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
It seems you are not willing or able to get my point. Does this mean you believe I exist? "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Those two sentences don't go together, somehow. I'd think it would be quite difficult to read a lot about the Big Bang without having seen at least some mention of cosmological-scale redshifts or the microwave background radiation. Heck, ICANT, you've seen microwave background radiation - Do you mean if God spoke the Universe into existance that the nano seconds afterwards that these things went into their positions would not cause the exact same things? "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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anglagard Member (Idle past 866 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
ICANT writes: Do you mean if God spoke the Universe into existance that the nano seconds afterwards that these things went into their positions would not cause the exact same things? What difference would your guess make to the TOE or any other form of science? Edited by anglagard, : Change tack.
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Doddy Member (Idle past 5939 days) Posts: 563 From: Brisbane, Australia Joined: |
I am saying there have been many frauds that have been caught. How many are there that have not been caught. In science and so called christianity. How come Christianity gets the "so-called" qualifier, but science doesn't? Are you implying that frauds are a part of real science? Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: No. There are, however, 1) extremely rare, and2) uncovered almost immediately by other scientists. quote: Again, they were discovered to be frauds, by other scientists, through the process of peer-review. Science is self-correcting, becasue it is extremely rigorous in examining and testing every claim.
quote: If somebody lies such that data is fudged or inappropriately tweaked, it will likely be noticed. First, a scientist's graduate students and post doctoral students will notice, becasue they are the ones doing the actual experiments and most of the writing of the paper. If things are fishy in the final product, they will be likely to notice. Second, the reviewers at the journal who reads the manuscrips is an expert in the field and will also likely notice if something doesn't add up. Third, if the work is presented at a conference, other scientists will have no qualms whasoever about grilling a scientist to his or her face about results or numbers that appear to be dodgy. Fourth, even if the fraudulent paper gets through all of this and is published, for the research to be granted anything more than the most tentative of acceptance, other independent labs will attempt to replicate the experiments and if nobody gets the same result, the hypothesis simply dies.
quote: Actually, as I explained, they do go away in science. The scientific peer review process is designed specifically to keep the good stuff and purge what isn't useful. Lies aren't useful becasue they do no correspond with reality, so they are rejected.
quote: All professional Biologists "use" the ToE in that all of the work by all of the scientists that their work is based upon flows from the basic premise of the ToE, which is that all life originated from a common ancestor and has descended with modification.
quote: LOL! Yeah, tell me about how highly we regard scientists in this country that we read about them in People magazine, and how many European villas all of these millionaire scientists own. The vast, vast majority of basic research is done by modestly-compensated professors toiling away in academia, ICANT.
quote: Every single experiment a Biologist does is a test of the ToE.
quote: Okay. But even if you believe God just poofed life into existence it changes nothing at all about the positive evidence gathered over the last 150 years in favor of the ToE. The ToE doesn't attempt to explain where the first life came from any more than Aerodynamics explains where wind comes from.
My question stands "How can anybody believe in the theory of evolution?" The reason they accept it is because the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it.
quote: That question is irrelevant to the ToE, just as where the wind comes from is irrelevant to the field of Aerodynamics. Do you disbelieve the Germ Theory of Disease because it doesn't explain where the first bacteria came from? Do you disbelieve the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar System because it doesn't explain gravity?
quote: I'm not angry. I am direct. Now, would you please actually answer the question I asked, since it wasn't merely rhetorical? If you cannot answer it, then please retract this most serious and insulting accusation. I would also appreciate an ackowledgement that you read and understood my description of how and why the way science is conducted is likely to detect wrongdoing.
ICANT, science is a painfully open, honest profession. Scientists who "twist anything to say what they want" will have an extremely hard time getting published in any legitimate peer-reviewed professional journal. This is because science is progressive; it builds upon the work of others. Fraud in science is extremely rare because the penalty for doing so is very harsh. (and they are nearly always eventually caught because when other scientists try to replicate their work, they won't get the same results, and also because graduate students and collaborators are very willing to be whistleblowers, since nobody wants their own work to be tainted by association) Scientists who cheat can't get work in their field ever again.
So, I ask again; exactly which Biologists are willing to "twist anything"? Which scientists, exactly, distort or fabricate their findings in favor of their "agenda"? Which legitimate scientific journals have their papers been published in?
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Except where in the Bible does it say "billions of years?" How foolish of me it doesn't say 1 billion million trillion trillion to the trillionth power either. But it could be. It says in the beginning. Whenever that was, I was just using the numbers science gives us. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Do you disbelieve the Germ Theory of Disease because it doesn't explain where the first bacteria came from? It doesn't have to prove where the first bacteria came from the ToE has to as far as I am concerned.
2) uncovered almost immediately by other scientists. quote: 41 years 40 years is considered a generation. There were a lot of people that were born and died before this hoax was exposed. Now if I am correct that there is a God and a Heaven to gain and a Hell to avoid. Many of those people may go to Hell because of the hoax. Because they took it as the missing link and refused to believe God. If I am wrong and there is no God, no Heaven, and no Hell they did not miss anything. Lets see I have a 50 50 chance of being right so What IF?
But even if you believe God just poofed life into existence it changes nothing at all about the positive evidence gathered over the last 150 years in favor of the ToE. quote: quote: quote: quote: I think the last four quotes state what I believe about evolution and science. nator if this is not sufficient for you just rant on. But don't expect me to do the same. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
How come Christianity gets the "so-called" qualifier, but science doesn't? Are you implying that frauds are a part of real science? Thanks Doddy, I wasn't paying much attention I was thinking more on the christian side. So I apologize. No I do not think a true scientist would falsify work. Just as I don't think a true Christian would. I am sure neither would do so knowingly, or on purpose. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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nator Member (Idle past 2200 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I see. So, sometimes you take the bible at it's literal word, and other times you add to the literal word, such as adding "billions" of years to a story. Sometimes you include what science says, and other times you don't.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
If I am wrong and there is no God, no Heaven, and no Hell they did not miss anything.
False. You're ignoring all the others religions that are as equally valid as christianity, thus it is not a 50/50 chance. Lets see I have a 50 50 chance of being right so What IF? Just a monkey in a long line of kings. If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! *not an actual doctor
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.7 |
Sometimes you include what science says, and other times you don't. I am saying that since it says "IN THE BEGINNING", That time could have been any time in the past. "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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