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Author Topic:   Eternal Life (thanks, but no thanks)
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 504 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 241 of 296 (594845)
12-05-2010 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by GDR
12-02-2010 8:53 PM


Re: Where is science in this?
GDR writes:

All I'm saying is that secular science is also open to the possibility of another universe or dimensions all around us, as well as the possibility of other time dimensions.

And the relevance/importance of these possibilities is the potential of someday understanding them well enough that we can reliably identify some physical manifestation of their interaction with natural phenomena that we actually observe (and couldn't properly explain by other means).

That is, the value of considering things beyond our current perception lies in reaching for the ability to incorporate them someday in an expanded and more accurate account of observable reality.

Obviously if someone had their theology 100% accurate and their science 100% accurate the two would be totally congruent.

If someone had their science 100% accurate, they would have no need for theology -- indeed, the notion of "theology" would be nonexistent. As it is, with our science being imperfect and incomplete, theology is simply a side-show of undefinable terms and unverifiable claims.


autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by GDR, posted 12-02-2010 8:53 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by GDR, posted 12-05-2010 9:08 PM Otto Tellick has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4826
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 242 of 296 (594961)
12-05-2010 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Otto Tellick
12-05-2010 12:29 PM


Re: Where is science in this?
Otto Tellick writes:

And the relevance/importance of these possibilities is the potential of someday understanding them well enough that we can reliably identify some physical manifestation of their interaction with natural phenomena that we actually observe (and couldn't properly explain by other means).

That is, the value of considering things beyond our current perception lies in reaching for the ability to incorporate them someday in an expanded and more accurate account of observable reality.

I'm in complete agreeement with that.

Otto Tellick writes:

If someone had their science 100% accurate, they would have no need for theology -- indeed, the notion of "theology" would be nonexistent. As it is, with our science being imperfect and incomplete, theology is simply a side-show of undefinable terms and unverifiable claims.

In the final analysis nothing is provable.

In saying that science is capable of giving us all of the answers, you are using a science of the gaps argument, in that essentially you're saying that although we don't know the answers now science will eventually fill in the gaps.

Maybe there are answers that are beyond the scope of the scientific method and maybe there aren't. It's back to the issue of faith again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Otto Tellick, posted 12-05-2010 12:29 PM Otto Tellick has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Modulous, posted 12-06-2010 7:03 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 260 by Omnivorous, posted 12-15-2010 11:16 AM GDR has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 243 of 296 (595006)
12-06-2010 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by GDR
12-05-2010 9:08 PM


Re: Where is science in this?
Either way - for this thread science isn't an issue. We don't need to worry about proving Eternal Life is empirically possible or even likely: just whether or not an argument exists which demonstrates that eternal life is desirable ie., whether there is an escape from the dilemma in the OP.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by GDR, posted 12-05-2010 9:08 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4826
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 244 of 296 (595165)
12-07-2010 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


OK Modulous

I'll go back to your OP to make sure we are on topic.

Modulous writes:

Do I get a choice?

For reasons I will explain, the concept of eternal life whichever way it is dressed up fills me with either horror or non-caring. If I had a choice I would not accept this offer. Can I not simply request to be sent into the dark absence of oblivion rather than suffering permanent consciousness? It seems highly immoral to force me to do the thing which I would loathe to do.

If I had to guess I'd say yes. Essentially it is my belief that you ultimately have to choose to embrace God's call for a heart that humbly loves kindness, and a life that humbly reflects justice, or you can choose to separate yourself from God by essentially choosing love of self.

CS Lewis says writes metaphorically in his book the "Great Divorce" about these choices. Here is a quote from it:

quote:
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. "

So this means that you won't be without an option, but as to whether oblivion is possible or not we'll have to wait to find out.

Modulous writes:

Do I grow?

In many versions of immortality my personality remains the same for all eternity. What horror! My goals remain the same? Does that mean they are never fulfilled? Or does it mean I never get any new goals? Do I learn anything? If I do learn, gain new goals and so on and so forth - then I surely am growing. The dilemma is this:

If I do grow, then I change. This is good. I like changing - I am a different person now, then when I was six years old and I am different from when I was eighteen. The me aged eighteen can be said to be 'dead' since it doesn't really exist any more. It has been replaced with me aged twenty eight. If I have eternal life and I grow and change, I will be so radically different by the age of five hundred, what difference would it make to my twenty eight year old self if that five hundred year old person exists? *I* don't exist, in that my personality, my beliefs and my goals don't exist any more. So if I do change over time: I don't really care if I have eternal life. It makes no difference since I will eventually no longer exist and a different person will exist.

If I don't change - what the heck is the point of having eternal life? An eternity of stasis without learning, without discovery? That is the most hellish concept I can think of. To even spend eternity in a state of bliss and wonder seems to me to be hollow and pointless gratification if I don't learn or change in anyway.

The Biblical picture of what happens at the end of time is a new creation, (new heavens and new earth), when our earthly dimension is combined with God's heavenly dimension. I would then assume that the next life will essentially be this life plus much more. (I have to agree that an eternity of harps and clouds doesn't do much for me either. )

As one aspect of this world is change as experienced through our dimension of time, I have to assume that we will experience change in the next life as well whether it be the way we do now or through some way that is beyond our comprehension. Maybe we will be able to move around in time. Who knows?

modulous writes:

So God, can you take your offer of eternal life and stick it somewhere dark and unconscious?

You might want to hang around long enough to find out just what it is that you are rejecting.

Modulous writes:

Either that or explain to me why I'm wrong.

This ain't God speaking, but I've done what I can.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Modulous, posted 12-07-2010 1:40 PM GDR has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 245 of 296 (595214)
12-07-2010 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by GDR
12-07-2010 2:46 AM


If I had to guess I'd say yes. Essentially it is my belief that you ultimately have to choose to embrace God's call for a heart that humbly loves kindness, and a life that humbly reflects justice, or you can choose to separate yourself from God by essentially choosing love of self.

Indeed: the tyrant's choice. We get to choose between eternal joy or eternal sorrow? It's the eternal part I was asking about.

As one aspect of this world is change as experienced through our dimension of time, I have to assume that we will experience change in the next life as well whether it be the way we do now or through some way that is beyond our comprehension. Maybe we will be able to move around in time. Who knows?

I don't know. I can't get too excited about vague mysteriousness, I'm afraid.

You might want to hang around long enough to find out just what it is that you are rejecting.

I might. Or maybe I've hung around long enough? How long do you propose I need to live for to know I can say I've found out the answers to the problems raised by eternal life?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by GDR, posted 12-07-2010 2:46 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 12-07-2010 6:13 PM Modulous has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4826
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 246 of 296 (595268)
12-07-2010 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Modulous
12-07-2010 1:40 PM


Modulous writes:

Indeed: the tyrant's choice. We get to choose between eternal joy or eternal sorrow? It's the eternal part I was asking about.

I can't see where a tyrant would give you a choice. As for the question of whether or not you can top yourself in the next life; I have to say that I haven't the foggiest. I believe that we were made to exist with God but maybe separation from him wouldn't be such a bad thing for those who choose it.

Modulous writes:

I don't know. I can't get too excited about vague mysteriousness, I'm afraid.

I suppose it is analogous to being in the womb. It's nice and warm but at that point we have no idea what happens after we leave that comfortable environment. We don't even know what's going to happen tomorrow but the vast majority keep on keeping on.

Modulous writes:

I might. Or maybe I've hung around long enough? How long do you propose I need to live for to know I can say I've found out the answers to the problems raised by eternal life?

Not to worry. We are "The Borg". We will assimilate you.

Just as I can't tell you what's happening tomorrow, next week, or next year I don't have an answer. Just hang in there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Modulous, posted 12-07-2010 1:40 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Modulous, posted 12-08-2010 9:08 AM GDR has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 247 of 296 (595370)
12-08-2010 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by GDR
12-07-2010 6:13 PM


Just as I can't tell you what's happening tomorrow, next week, or next year I don't have an answer. Just hang in there

I'm not asking for answers about the future. I'm asking if it is possible to construct a hypothetical eternal life which escapes the dilemma, or for any reason why the dilemma is a false one. Whether or not that hypothetical eternal life is going to come to pass in not a question I think we need worry about in this thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by GDR, posted 12-07-2010 6:13 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by GDR, posted 12-08-2010 8:41 PM Modulous has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4826
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 248 of 296 (595485)
12-08-2010 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Modulous
12-08-2010 9:08 AM


Modulous writes:

I'm asking if it is possible to construct a hypothetical eternal life which escapes the dilemma, or for any reason why the dilemma is a false one.

Hypothetical is certainly the key word, although the word "guess" is probably more accurate. My guess is that consciousness/soul/spirit is eternal but IMHO we will have to wait until the next life to find out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Modulous, posted 12-08-2010 9:08 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Modulous, posted 12-09-2010 11:31 AM GDR has responded

    
Modulous
Member (Idle past 277 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 249 of 296 (595577)
12-09-2010 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by GDR
12-08-2010 8:41 PM


Hypothetical is certainly the key word, although the word "guess" is probably more accurate. My guess is that consciousness/soul/spirit is eternal but IMHO we will have to wait until the next life to find out.

No, hypothetical is more accurate. I'm not asking people to guess if there is a 'next life' or what that life will be like, I'm asking for a philosophical discussion whether a certain class of 'guess' (ie., an eternal afterlife) is actually as attractive (to us non mortal beings) as some people say it is (or at least should be) as per the insistence of certain religious views.

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by GDR, posted 12-08-2010 8:41 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by GDR, posted 12-09-2010 12:01 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
 Message 253 by BarackZero, posted 12-13-2010 12:18 PM Modulous has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4826
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 250 of 296 (595588)
12-09-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Modulous
12-09-2010 11:31 AM


Modulous writes:

No, hypothetical is more accurate. I'm not asking people to guess if there is a 'next life' or what that life will be like, I'm asking for a philosophical discussion whether a certain class of 'guess' (ie., an eternal afterlife) is actually as attractive (to us non mortal beings) as some people say it is (or at least should be) as per the insistence of certain religious views.

Briefly I believe that the future life will have much in common with this one except that suffering, pain and death won't be a feature of it. I believe that there will still be purpose and that it will still be relational. I believe that we will still be physical beings but with a different type of physicality. I'm looking forward to it but I plan to hang on to this life for some time to come yet.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Theodoric, posted 12-09-2010 9:04 PM GDR has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6319
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 251 of 296 (595682)
12-09-2010 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by GDR
12-09-2010 12:01 PM


splain please
What does this mumbo-jumbo even mean?

I believe that we will still be physical beings but with a different type of physicality.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by GDR, posted 12-09-2010 12:01 PM GDR has responded

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GDR
Member
Posts: 4826
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 252 of 296 (595684)
12-09-2010 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Theodoric
12-09-2010 9:04 PM


Re: splain please
Theodoric writes:

What does this mumbo-jumbo even mean?

The only example we have of someone being resurrected is Jesus. The gospel accounts indicate that there were things about the physicality of Jesus that were different after he was resurrected.

AbE Just to add to this. It is my understanding of scripture that God created heaven and earth as separate dimensions, (universes or whatever),and at the end of time all of creation, heaven and earth will be joined together into one. In light of this I also assumme our resurrected physical bodies will be adapted for our new way of life.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


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BarackZero
Member (Idle past 3027 days)
Posts: 57
Joined: 10-08-2010


Message 253 of 296 (596133)
12-13-2010 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Modulous
12-09-2010 11:31 AM


Modulous the Pretend Pirate wearing a shirt too large for his neck:
quote:
I'm not asking for answers about the future. I'm asking if it is possible to construct a hypothetical eternal life which escapes the dilemma, or for any reason why the dilemma is a false one. Whether or not that hypothetical eternal life is going to come to pass in not a question I think we need worry about in this thread.

1. The "dilemma" you so superficially constructed is a strawman. It is as absurd as you look wearing your little pirate's hat. If anyone you know presented you with a photograph of you at your high school graduation ceremony, and asked if that was you, you would of course answer in the affirmative. And yet in your opening line, you claim otherwise. You're "different" and the old you is gone. I have only heard such nonsense prattled from the godless left, speaking of which,

2. Your first two words, Mister Pirate, are "Dear God." So clearly you are not addressing anyone who posts on this forum. Moreover, since you are a militant atheist, you are also self-contradictory, writing to the "supernatural" being you have denied countless times.
How unscholarly of you.

3. Many of us cherish what we have learned in growing up. You, not so much. You don't like learning because it changes you into someone entirely different. But you don't like to remain who you are because that's so very boring. Evidently playing Mister Pirate is more to your liking.
When you father and raise your own children, you will learn things that will delight you, and others that will alarm or shock you. Think of it as a process, rather like evolution. Now godless leftists swear allegiance to evolution, and all its wonderful properties. Why you should absolutely reject evolution in your own personal life is really something you need to explain, rather than denounce as completely unacceptable.

4. The pretense that your bizarre creation of a "dilemma" applies to everyone else is something else you need to explain. For Stephen Hawking, who has been confined to a wheelchair for most of his life, one might think that he would welcome the transition to a new status where he could spend a good deal more time enjoying himself than he has spent here on earth.

Atheists may argue that it is eminently "fair" for the injustices here on earth to end in oblivion and darkness, but I'm sure most people think of a day of reckoning presents a cosmic justice that would be satisfying and enlightening. Imagine those whose most precious loved ones were taken away from them by monsters who were never caught and brought to justice here on earth.

Either
A. They will die and escape punishment forever, according to pirates like you, or else
B. They will face their Maker, who will dispense perfect justice the likes of which we cannot imagine, but with which everyone will agree. What does this mean? Well, a hint of perfect justice was shown when God commanded Abraham to slay his son, his only son. Abraham did not question this, but began to do as he was ordered. When God saw this, he held back Abraham from the deed.

Second example. Two women claimed the same baby and brought their case to Solomon, the wisest man ever to live. Solomon held the child by one foot and pretended he was about to cut it in half and give half to each woman. The real mother begged him to spare her child, and in so doing, proved her love and her true motherhood. Solomon awarded her the child he had proven to be her own.

Pretend pirates can of course find fault with both of these, because pretend pirates think themselves wiser than God, more clever than God, able to configure petty challenges that God could not possibly defeat.

But pretend pirates are only playing petty games. Reality is something very, very different than pretend piracy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Modulous, posted 12-09-2010 11:31 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 296 (596134)
12-13-2010 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by BarackZero
12-13-2010 12:18 PM


Modulous the Pretend Pirate wearing a shirt too large for his neck:

Really? Look, this is EvC Forum. If you're going to try to rip on people you need to bring your A material. Making fun of people's joke avatars isn't going to cut it.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
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Just being real
Member (Idle past 2109 days)
Posts: 369
Joined: 08-26-2010


(1)
Message 255 of 296 (596269)
12-14-2010 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Modulous
02-04-2009 9:33 AM


I am a different person now, then when I was six years old and I am different from when I was eighteen. The me aged eighteen can be said to be 'dead' since it doesn't really exist any more.

I've also often found this dilemma intriguing. What is it they say? The body completely replaces every cell every seven to ten years or something? If that's true then I have been completely replaced some four to five times since birth.

So the thing I am wondering here Modulous, is if you are going to set up a discussion where we are conjecturing "what if" eternal life is true, then why do you still require it to strictly adhere to your conception of reality? I mean this is kind of like saying "what if" Oompaloompas really do work in Wonka's Chocolate factory, then how come he doesn't have to provide health insurance like every other business owner?

Do you see the problem? If you are going to take that step and allow (for the sake of argument) that Oompaloompas exist at all, then you have to go with the full story which says they also never get sick and they also work for nothing.

Likewise if you are going to allow for the sake of argument that there is a God, heaven, and eternal life to be had, then you have to spring for the full package which also states that you have a soul. And though your body has changed since you were 18, and is not the same body, your soul though hopefully wiser and more mature, is and always will be the real you. That part of you has the ability to expand infinitely in understanding and knowledge, however it is not replicating itself. Therefore according to Christian theology, you do not ever become something entirely different from the person you are now, you merely expand upon that person.

the concept of eternal life whichever way it is dressed up fills me with either horror or non-caring.

Think of the love you feel for the person on earth to whom you are the closest. The one person in your life who gives you the greatest joy and meaning to life. Now imagine feeling that relationship grow stronger day by day forever and ever. You never become board and you keep discovering new and fascinating things about that person every day. Now imagine that feeling with someone who is an infinite creator who you could literally spend eternity discovering the depths of His love and grace.

Now imagine an eternity separated from that love. An eternity that you chose by squandering away every chance that you were given to freely receive it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Modulous, posted 02-04-2009 9:33 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by bluegenes, posted 12-14-2010 6:14 AM Just being real has not yet responded
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