What is God’s Heaven or plan at the end? Would you like it?

It was written that God purposes the 'restoration of all things' - It should come as no surprise that Gods given name 'YHWH' signifies 'He Causes to Become'. Following the exhaustion of Satan's actions, God announced he would restore His original design for mankind. Although it may be far out of reach for anyone today to understand what this may imply, we can rest easy knowing that it would be void of the endless list of problems from which we are plagued with.From a personal standpoint, given my age and experience in life, the thought of hope for mankind brings on a sense of peace.

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God began with a Perfect universe. When did He screw it up?

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To my own knowledge the universe is functioning as designed. Whether mankind lives or perishes seems to have little or no consequences on that.

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God would not allow His Perfection to be blemished by something that He needs to fix later. "restoration of all things'" would be an admission that He failled somehow. Impossible for a God.

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God demonstrated that he would not direct his human creations like automatons or preprogrammed entities. He would either allow or disallow things to happen, however stating that God is somehow responsible, would be an oversight. Once he created free moral agents(in his own image) then all of the choices and implications would be made visible to them. This would include evil.

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How is your God allowed to foul up?

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In a case of an adult doing wrong, when would it be reasonable to hold the parents responsible for the actions of a full grown man? From a legal standpoint, this is inadmissible. The angel who became Satan was not an innocent or confused child. Although he did transpose his own choices onto humans, they too had the absolute power of choice. This alone demonstrates that they were both fully capable of making informed decisions. They could of simply told the angel to go away.I remain perplexed at how people seem hung up on the implications of absolute freedom. If God created us in His own image then we would have the awareness and capacity to manage all aspects of freedom. This would include right and wrong. While some seem to think that He could of created partial freedom, then the resulting conditions would not of been true to His own image.To help get a better grasp on the conditions of absolute freedom, we could look back into basic physics. The implications of the absolute freedom of bodies and movement are very much the same. It becomes obvious that absolute freedom can only be achieved when a specific set of conditions are met(as with absolute truth).The entire argument rests on the understanding of absolute freedom. It either exists or it doesn't. We either have the ability to discern right and wrong, or we don't. - just as the ability to exercise right and wrong would be made available to us.So the question remains, was the angel who became Satan defective or... flawed for turning against his maker? To help put this into perspective, we could look at the case of Job. Satan made the issue clear-cut in his case. Was Job loyal to God, or was he serving him only because of self-interest? Satan boasted that he could turn Job away by taking away all things which made him happy. When Job had lost all his possessions, all his children, and even his health, his wife urged him saying - Curse God and die!. But Job remained loyal, saying ”As one of the senseless women speaks, you speak also. Shall we accept merely what is good from the true God and not accept also what is bad?’ In all this the imperfect man Job did not sin.Looking further down the line we also have Jesus, one of the only other perfect beings to walk the earth since Adam and Eve.So we do have examples to demonstrate our capacity as humans in the face of evil under both perfect and imperfect states. It would seem to me that the logical choice for Satan's behavior was based on his own free will. In a case where he may have truly believed that he could of challenged God and won. Regardless, it would of been well within his own rights to do so.Whatever the case may be, there are no advantages in taking the path less traveled. We have ample reason to believe that God cares enough for his human creations to take care of them. Beyond the implications or weighing in Godly characteristics we are all merely humans trying to think like God.Edited by pbee, : typo

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This would mean that Eve made the right choice in taking a bite.
Without this knowledge we would know very little. Right?

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I don't know if saying Eve made 'the right choice' is an appropriate way to treat the account. I can't help but sense that the use of the term term *right could imply it was somehow beneficial or better.She did however make a decision which left no room for error. She chose to believe that God was dishonest and betrayed Him. From my own perspective, it was the wrong choice to make. But it was her choice nonetheless.

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There is no possible way for anyone having even the slightest chance at knowing the right answer to that question.

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Even if they guess correctly, how could they possibly determine if they are right?

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It is therefore a total waste of time and thought to contemplate it for any longer than it takes to come to the first two conclusions stated above.

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Anybody who thinks they know is just a) making it up and choosing to believe it, or b) repeating what somebody told them and choosing to believe it.

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If we base our knowledge on scriptural information then this is not at all true. The ancient scriptures provide us with a great deal of information as to what is involved in the recovery of Satan's and Adam and Eve's actions.What is God’s Heaven or plan at the end? The bible speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. It is a good indication of a restoration of the original design or intent. It also seem literal, as in the earth we are walking on now.

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Are you saying that man somehow has the power to derail God's original plan.

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Yes

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We must then be more powerful than God Himself right.

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Not at all, foiling someones plan proves little where power is concerned(see 9/11). It simply proves that they had the capacity to do so. The true measure of power is proven He who has control over the entire system. In this case, He who has the authority over it.

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I believe that things are going exactly as God wants or He would end it.

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All of the evidence points in the opposite direction. When all is said and done, we can choose whatever we want to believe, However, this does nothing in way of the truth. I beleive that if the original sin did not originate in heaven, God would of wiped the slate clean. However, since the implications ran beyond the physical man, God drove His stake in the ground and proved Satan wrong.

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Please show just when we derailed God's plan.

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When Adam and Eve brought evil and sin onto themselves. Edited by pbee, : typos

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So if God was, is, and will come, why was He surprised at what humanity chose to do?

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This question made my laugh. For some reason, I had a vision of those Kung-Fu movies where the actors put on that over-exaggerated surprised look combine with classic (huuugh!?)If a parent chooses to respect his or her child's privacy(bedroom etc.) Would they be surprised if there child had been secretly taking drugs? Does it somehow validate that the parents are weak because they chose to give there children the freedom and ability to make decisions? It is very likely that God *could of peered into A&E's timeline, and effectively see what was going to happen, or... He may of stood true to his word and allowed them to make there own choices without violating there freedom.I will agree with ICANT when he said, God was most likely disappointed when it happened. However, we there is no mention of any defined reactions beyond what Jesus said when he came to investigate the situation.

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You indicate Perfection in Eve at the beginning. Would a Perfect entity not make Perfect choices?

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As to Adam’s being perfect, When God pronounced his earthly creation, including man and woman, to be "very good" it implied that the activity was perfect to have said that what he made was "very good" it measured up to his perfect standards.Did perfection require that Adam and Eve be unable to do wrong? The maker of a robot expects it to do exactly what he has programmed it to do. But a perfect robot would not be a perfect human. The qualities viewed as essential are not the same. Adam and Eve were humans, not robots. To humankind, God gave the ability to choose between right and wrong, between obedience and disobedience, to make moral decisions. Since this is the way humans were designed, the inability to make such decisions(and not an unwise decision) is what would have indicated imperfection.For Adam and Eve to qualify as being created perfect, must all their decisions thereafter be right? That would be the same as saying that they had no choice. But God did not make them in such a way that their obedience would be automatic. God granted them the ability to choose, so that they could obey because they loved him. Or, if they allowed their hearts to become selfish, they would become disobedient. Which means more to you when someone does something for you because he is forced to do it or because he wants to?How could such perfect humans become selfish, leading to acts of sin? Although created perfect, their physical bodies would not continue to function perfectly if not provided with proper food. So, too, if they let the mind feed on wrong thoughts, this would cause moral deterioration, unholiness. The scriptures explains it as such "Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin." In the case of Eve, the wrong desires began to develop when she listened with interest to Satan, who used a serpent as his mouthpiece. Adam heeded the urging of his wife to join her in eating the forbidden fruit. Instead of rejecting the wrong thoughts, both nourished selfish desires. Acts of sin resulted.

If you want to argue your baseless comment, start a thread to address your claim, otherwise your comment is a waist.The comment quoted and addressed an issue raised(as shown).

Hell is nothing more than a manifestation of poor biblical interpretations(translations) and religious doctrines. The parent documents which were used to etch most bibles translations in circulation provide powerful evidence to contradict the common concept of hell.I'm going to inherent a fitting term to describe the irony of such a belief. If Hell truly existed according to many modern religions, then such beliefs would render God, malevolent! - Who in there right mind would want to take a position under a God that tortures his human creations, when we ourselves have declared such behavior unfitting for even an animal.So it's something worth considering.

That is a very mature and balance view of things GDR.
Thanks for the reference also.

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You recall wrong.

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God destroyed the earth once with a flood and He threatens to destroy it again in the "end time". Why would He destroy perfection?

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You really need to drop the idiotic notion of "perfection". It's a useless concept.

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Though God most certainly did create perfection, the destruction of things at the time of the flood was anything but. The attack was carried out on the results which sin(imperfection) had brought into the world.

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Do you really believe that God would break His own law of killing even to killing innocent babies and children and give us an example where genocide is OK?

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God is the only authority with the right to give and take life. There are no such things as God breaking his own laws.Innocent...? was it not written that the earth was consumed with badness? Thought it may be our nature to minimalize the unknown, I have no doubt that the state of things in that time was anything but innocent. Based on the account, most of those walking the earth of that period were very deserving of the impending destruction which was coming to them. - Still, despite all these thing, look! God made provisions for even the wicked ones. He allowed Noa to preach and leave the door open to anyone who wanted salvation. A truly remarkable gesture considering all things.

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God cannot be such a dick.
He must also be some kind of looser if He can only find 8 people to save out of millions. This effort changed absolutely nothing. Could He not predict this or is He even a looser on predictions.

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Your attempts to discredit God(though limited) are notable. However, was it ever God's intent to *find anyone? If there were only eight people left at that time, then it was what it was. Of course, we could conclude that God could of simply intervened by declaring things to His own liking, but how would this stand against the arrangement of freedom and choice? No, It would seem as though God chose to maintain the integrity of his original arrangement by allowing humans to continue to choose their own destinies.Considering all things, I would say God was exceptionally patient and considerate towards all his human creations. This would include even those undeserving of salvation.Interesting phenomenon with the position one takes under God isn't it? To some God is a savior, to others a bringer of bad news. Such has been the case from the dawn or recorded history(including the flood). Interestingly enough, for most, the right position was a no brainer.

The problem lies in ones understanding of term perfection.
The dictionary defines the English word "perfect" comes from the Latin prefix per, meaning "throughout, thoroughly or completely"; V. facere, "to do or make"So *perfection, is something that is completely made or finished, not lacking in essential parts, not defective. It is something that meets all requirements and measures up to a set of standards. The manufacturer or maker, is the one who sets such standards and once those conditions are met, can be said to be perfect.So those objecting to the claim of perfection are simply going by their own personal ideals instead of God's. The Hebrew and Greek words that the Bible writers used to express perfection have a meaning very similar to the basic meaning of the English word perfect. They convey the idea of something that is complete, finished, fully developed and having attained an appointed purpose or goal.Looking back at the first human pair, the scriptures read that Adam and Eve were created perfect. God even gave them a perfect moral start and a clean conscience. However, He did not create them so they they would be incapable of sinning, or that they could only obey accordingly.As it has been explained numerous times, Adam and Eve were created and with the freedom of choice! Their Creator, purposed that they should exercise free moral agency and to make personal decisions by choosing between right and wrong, between obedience and disobedience. Keeping in mind that God sets the standards and requirements, his will governs. Therefore, if humans did not have the gift of free choice, then they would end up being incomplete or imperfect, according to God’s standards.

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If it was vulnerable to sin, it could not have been a perfect world.

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This would be implying that they had no choices in the matter, since if you can only choose one option, then there is no choosing at all.So the argument is simply a substituted opinion in place of God’s standards. The same standards which required that the human pair be capable of choosing good or bad. Why? Because only then could love enter the picture. If they obeyed because they could do nothing but obey, then they would live a life of automatons. But since God granted them the ability to choose, they were free to serve based on there own desires. Or... consequently disobey God if they so chose to.

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OK. Babies and young children were guilty of sin and deserved to die and God can break any of His laws whenever He wants.

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Well you could look at it that way, then again... we could trust that God knew exactly where things were going and that those walking the earth at that time were indeed rotten to the core. As mentioned in an earlier post, God made provisions for everyone to be saved(good and bad). It was up to those people to protect there own against the approaching danger. They did not however, heed the warnings nor did they pay any attention to Noah's works. They were perversely bad and they *chose to stand in defiance to God taking their children down with them. (shame on them!)As mentioned earlier, God is the only Authority fully qualified to give and take back life. Attempting to stick human laws and conditions to God is completely benign and illogical. I find it ironic how people continue to craft up their own little versions of God in order to suite their needs. Despite this, God was never at the mercy of human desires and needs since He alone sets standards for humankind and He alone enforces them. He is life and He is death. What he is not however, is a pushover.

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If this describes your God the you can have Him. My God is more fair and logical. You must believe that this mythical flood is real and justified. Why? Nothing changed after the flood. Evil still abounds. The flood just shows another failed attempt by God to adjust man. What a looser. He can’t get it right but what the Hell it is only humans that suffered His genocide. We are expendable.

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Obviously God knew what was necessary in order to protect the integrity of His direction. The flood was never intended to restore mankind to perfection. It was a used to rid the world of the particular wickedness which had taken hold of the land."We" are not. You can't speak for others in cases such as these. If such a condition was recreated today, you can be sure "we" would not be standing on the same side of the fence. Just as myself and my children would of been on that ark. Unlike some, I would of gladly taken whatever lifelines were offered for salvation.

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The freedom of choice that you are concerned about was certainly taken away by your genocidal God. That issue is mute.

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Absolutely not. God gave everyone(good and evil) the freedom to choose not to die in the face of the flood. They refused and *chose to spite God and His provisions and... they died!

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I do not discredit your God. You do that with your own words. My God does not do a useless genocide and therefore deserves my respect.

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“ Considering all things, I would say God was exceptionally patient and considerate towards all his human creations”
Yes. Especially when He was drowning every one for no gain. Just for fun..

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There was a clear explanation for God's actions in the flood. Furthermore, it was not something he liked to do(as written). Though you may take a particular position towards God, this has no bearing on God's true nature. The interesting thing about God and man is that we can *choose to stand with Him or against Him. Whatever the case, only God has the authority to set standards. While you and others may claim God is cruel and so on and so forth. Millions of others feel that God is a savior? Why is that?(no need to answer)

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We agree that Adam and Eve were Perfect. Being Perfect they made the right choice. In a Perfect universe there is no imperfect choice. All choice must lead to the same destiny.
From Perfection cannot come imperfection.

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See the meaning of perfection then come back to this.

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God creates Perfect souls and natures. All we need do and all we can do is follow these. We cannot and should not try to fight them.

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I have no idea what your trying to say here.

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The destiny of all humans is Heaven. In this there is no choice. To suggest that God could loose a Perfect soul or that He would allow imperfection like a Hell to be in His perfect universe is illogical.

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Well this depends, to my knowledge based on the scriptures, this is not the case. Man was not destined for Heaven and the doctrine of Hell is nothing but a manifestation of religious enterprises. May I ask what source(s) you have founded such beliefs from?