Why do Christians make God out to be dumb?

So forget death. Millions of children are starving in this country alone, but they're still alive. Starvation is not a transition. If God grieves but refuses to act, who gives a fuck? His grief means nothing if it doesn't spur action to ameliorate. I'm sure it makes you feel better to think that.But everybody who's alive wants to remain alive. Even if death is a "transition", as you say, a good and loving God wouldn't inflict that painful transition on anyone who didn't want it yet. You've offered nothing that lets your God off the hook; he's just as impotent and heartless as ever.

crashfrog wrote: God does act, as I said before.He prompts people to bring aid/food to some of the children around the world.If he directly and overtly intervened, it would nullify faith. He is not going to do that- not yet anyway. God doesn't inflict the evil, fellow humans do.

You give God credit for what people do in his stead.If God wanted to take action and ameliorate hunger, he could make manna fall from the heavens or something.It's people that load food into trucks and send it into the hells on Earth, not God. Don't belittle the people that do these things by giving credit to a do-nothing God. That to me is the worst thing that you God apologists do. Who cares? People are starving! Only a staggering egoist would care more about someone's relationship with him than their welfare.Faith, fuck. As though that could be more important than the suffering of millions.

crashfrog wrote: Why do these people that help do it?

Because like all social animals, we take care of the conspecifics we identify as our "kin". Of course, as we have no biological mechanisms for kin identification, our "kin" becomes whoever we decide they are.If it was your brother's children who were starving, would it take the power of God to get you to load some food into a truck? I doubt it.

crashfrog wrote: I concede that that is a possibility.However, I submit to you that many of the organizations that provide food for starving peoples around the world are Christian organizations operating under Christian principles.

I'm leaning that your looking at this all from your own mind, it says by the wisdom of man, you will not understand, perhaps this is the problem cause its by faith that one believes, though agree that by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Like didn't the wisemen of Israel by rejecting the Wisdom of the Word, and approving in abominations, the very reason they missed the visitation of the Son of God, when he took on flesh (Emmanuel), so its not that the Word necessarily lacks wisdom, but to become born again you must believe the foolishness of the gospel, though this is still wiser than the wisdom of man, but those that believe themselves wise will call it foolishness. So its not the Christians that call the gospel foolish but the unsaved that try to makeout God to be dumb, but thats how it pleased God to save them that believe, cause of the wisemen that rejected the wisdom of the Word, in the old testament, but to them that are saved its the power of God, etc...This message has been edited by whatever, 09-14-2004 07:50 PM

I'm a little confused by your stance on good and evil. I take it by this quote that God is responsible for the good actions done by humans... ...And I take this quote to mean that humans are responsible for their own evil actions.May I ask how you contribute the good done by humanity to God while allowing humanity to have to burden it's own evil actions. Doesn't this imply humanity is inherently evil and not free to choose good over evil? Would you mind clarifying as this seems to conflict with free will?thanx
PM1K

How does one look at any subject from outside one's mind?Could you please expand on this concept? I'm really not following how faith comes from being outside of one's own mind.thanx
PM1K

Of course. The well-known power of religious belief to spur phenominal altruism is one more testament to the power of human endeavor.But it doesn't change the fact that if God existed and wanted to do something about starving people, he wouldn't have to work through anything so flimsy and impotent as human vessels. He could merely wave his hands and people would be fed.God gave manna from heaven to the chosen people in the wilderness. Jesus turned lunch for ten into a feast for hundreds. But suddenly we're supposed to believe that prodding a human to do his work for Him constitutes the fullfilment of God's responsibilities? Please.

This is like those atheletes who praise God for their own victory but are curiously silent when God has the other guys win.

The bible talks about Abrahams bosom, hell, where old testment believers in Immanuel went, when they died, when giving up the ghost, (their spirit)(the spirit of a man), they went to a place called Abrahams bosom, when Jesus(Immanuel) died on the cross, his spirit went into the earth and he released these captives, the basis Jesus tarried when his friend Lazarus body was officially dead, he didn't leave until the 4th day, Jesus being the resurrection and the life resurrected Lazareths decomposed body, was the Jewish belief that after the 3rd day the persons spirit saw the body decomposing and knew at this point they couldn't go back into the body, but the Lords body never suffered decomposition(to fullfill scripture), he went back into his body after the 3rd day (not the 4th day)so his body never suffered decay, etc... (bible mentions when people died, they gave up the ghost), however, in the New Testament talks about when Christians die their spirit going up, not down, (absent from the body present with the Lord) because they are born of God, to be with the Lord, to behold his glory(something that pleases the Lord)(however its their spirit that goes up, the first and second resurrection will happen later (where new bodies will be given for our spirit),(this was what Job was saying that though this body be eaten by worms in the flesh, yet in spite of my body decomposing yet in the flesh with my own eyes will I see the Redeemer, etc..., so what part of them went up or down, if the body decomposes, etc...Is not this the whole basis of believing in Jesus Christ, because he is the resurrection and the life, and has the keys of death and of hell, so where we that die in Christ will be given incorruptible bodies, but because our names be written in the book of life, we will not experience the second death, etc...Its because of Jesus faith that were saved, our righteousness is like a filthy rag, it says, but gift of faith was given to the gentiles, that whosoever believeth should be saved, you can't earn it, buy it, its a free gift, kjv John 3:15 that one need not perish, etc...P.S. The reason I believe, Christians preach such is that the second resurrection, where all people that have ever lived are going to be given a new body so to stand before the Great White Throne, when the books are opened, they will stand to be judged, the second death, the way I understand it will be as this new body is cast into the lake of fire(it says blessed and holy is he that hath part of the first resurrection cause the second death holds no power over them) kjv rev 20:6, where their immortal soul minus the body destroyed by the lake of fire (second death), will reside, is not this the whole basis for the preacher preaching salavation, caring not about their mind, but their immortal soul, etc...P.S. What about the Charasmatic believer that has the gift of tongues(some Christians have other gifts, but some it says have the gift of tongues), speaking that which he knows not what, however the Word says that they are edified, if the mind doesn't know what he said(Pauls premise), then was not the mind bypassed and its the spirit of the man thats being edified, etc... I'm not saying that prayers of understanding in that gathered church will not edify the believer, because God is in the midst, where two or more are gathered together, or one will not be blessed when not speaking in tongues, but its one of the ways one is edified, because according to Paul its like the mind has no idea what was said, yet the believer is edified, so its almost like Paul was saying not forbid the speaking in tongues, but not to confuse the Church gathering with tongues that no one understands, unless their be an intepretation, if there be no one with the gift of interpretation the believer should keep silent in the gathering of believers, but worship God between themselves and God, etc...kjv Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandmentkjv 1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.kjv Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.kjv Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:kjv Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.kjv Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.This message has been edited by whatever, 09-15-2004 02:34 AM

Thanks for the lengthy reply, Whatever.I've read thru your response twice but I'm still unsure of your answer to the questions I posed. Excuse me for asking again and please feel free to quote the parts of message 162 that addressed my questions. thanx again
PM1K

I agree that it is a double standard. From a Christian perspective, IMHO both good and evil are the products of just folk. It is not reasonable to assign good to GOD but evil to man, and even worse in my opinion to assign evil to yet another supernatural critter, Satan.People are responsible for their actions, whether good or evil. The message of religion, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, or any other stripe is that you should try your best to do good.

Oh Lord, Bless this thy handgrenade...

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I'm not no theologian, might be a good question to like ask an evangelists, however, I kind of see it like, faith of Christ is a gift from God, who sent his Son, if your faith could of saved you, Jesus Christ (The Word) wouldn't of needed to come down from heaven to become clothed in flesh, if the faith of a man could of saved you, Abraham could of Sacrificed Issac, but the faith that saves you come from outside you, the faith of Christ.P.S. The Jews used to sacrifice an animal for the sins of the people (once per year), it says our life is in the blood, there were a lot of men of faith in the old testament, who believed by faith, but their faith was that that Immanuel would save them from Abrahams bosom, so in essence the faith of our Lord Jesus on the Cross of Calvary, saved even them, cause Jesus was faithful even unto death, so now anyone can now have faith in Christ, and this is having faith that outside ourselves were saved because of the faith of Jesus Christ. When one is saved, some believers recieve one of the gifts of the spirit, the gift of tongues, Paul even says my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful, but its quite interesting that the believer is edified, so it begs the question your asking about if the understanding resides in the mind how can one pray outside the mind, but Paul says by my spirit I prayeth.Jesse Duplantis an evangelists said something like that he prays and proceeds, or he goes forward, says that God wants us to make our own choices and that he blesses whatever we choose as long as its in the will of God, he said that God warns him if his choice is outside the will of God, then he has to heed the warning, because Gods will is like soverign, but that he enjoys life, because he makes choices that are not in conflict with Gods will, and God blesses the decisions he makes. Its interesting that God comforts the believer when they speak in tongues, perhaps it just pleases God that they are worshipping him, you can love someone without saying a word, and God loves us, in that Paul is saying its his spirit that prayeth and in this case Paul is not praying from the mind, (cause the mind doesn't understand), because were not saved of ourselves, its the free gift of God. The old testament believers in the prophecy of Immanuel to save them, was all based on their faith in the Son of God, that the Word would come to set them free, so they were not released from Abrahams bosom by their own power by by Christ (The Word), even now the Word of God, says that Jesus Christ died but is now alive forevermore, and has the keys of hell and of death, meaning The Word has the power over both hell and of death, he is the resurrection and the life, those that believe in him will have rivers of living water, as Jesus told the woman at the well, etc...kjv 1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.kjv Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:kjv Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
kjv Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: