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Author
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Topic: Poor Satan, so misunderstood.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 253 of 301 (448628)
01-14-2008 1:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 252 by Raphael
01-14-2008 12:53 PM
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Re: No need of God?
Raphael writes: You can't just base your acceptance of a God entity on evidence in the bible and look at the exact same evidence for a Satan entity and dismiss it because it makes more sense. I didn't say I accepted the God entity as described in the Bible. I said that the Satan character can be eliminated more easily than the God character. In a James Bond movie, the henchmen are just nameless, faceless "bad guys". Bond needs somebody to fight. Even the Goldfingers and Blofelds are just personifications of the "evil" that Bond is up against in movie after movie. Eliminate one villain and a gang of henchmen and a whole new crop of them appears in the next movie. The villains represent evil. Evil transcends individual characters that are easily replaced. But you can't replace James Bond.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 252 by Raphael, posted 01-14-2008 12:53 PM | | Raphael has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: You've been saying that the Devil is a personification of the evils within us, but what do you make of the person that Jesus spoke with in Luke 4. The "person" who tempted Him? There's a pretty strong clue that the whole story is figurative:
quote:
Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Ain't no such mountain.
What does that do to the typical, sin-free, portrayal of Jesus if he has the same "evil-inside" that we do? It's nonsense, of course. If Jesus was sin-free, He wasn't human. If He didn't have the same evil inside that we all do, He's irrelevant. If He didn't have the capacity to sin, the temptation by the "devil" would have been meaningless.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 257 of 301 (448735)
01-15-2008 1:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 256 by ICANT
01-15-2008 12:56 AM
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ICANT writes: Are you saying Jesus committed sin? I'm saying He wouldn't have been completely human if He didn't.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 256 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 12:56 AM | | ICANT has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: quote:
Ain't no such mountain.
I wouldn't use the lack of a minute detail to discount the whole story, but that's me... Minute detail? If "the devil" had taken Jesus to Neverland and fed Him to Captain Hook, would you still take it literally? If a fictitious location doesn't make a story fiction, what does?
I'm not so sure that Jesus did not have the capacity for sin, just that he had the strength to overcome it.... Superhuman strength to overcome temptation would make Him non-human and irrelevant. (The misunderstanding of "the devil" in this story is as on-topic as the misunderstanding of Satan anywhere else.)
What makes you think that he was completely human? I didn't say I did - but isn't that the standard doctrine? If Jesus was just another god in disguise, what distinguishes him from, say, Zeus trying to seduce a swan?
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: Then, it could just be a personification of the devil, but the story seems to say that Jesus was talking to an actual person.  That's what personification is.
The location of their conversation doesn't really seem to matter. It's an indication that the story shouldn't be taken too literally. If the location isn't literal, why should the character(s) be literal?
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: If that is what personification is, then how can you talk about an actual person without personifying them? Once again, personification is talking about a non-person as if it was a person. You can't personify a person any more than you can liquify a liquid.
And with that logic, you could argue that Jesus was just a personification. Yes, you could.
My point was that if that was a personification of the devil... "The devil" is a personification of evil.
... and Jesus has the same sin-ness in him that we do, then Jesus is "de-godified". Of course. That's the whole point of the incarnation. If He was still God, it would just be a fly-by.
If he was completely human, then I have no problem with the devil character in Luke 4 simply being a personificiation. I don't see how it makes any difference. Jesus' temptation could only be significant if He was human. It doesn't matter whether the temptation was by a real spooky devil or just His innate humanness. The fictional locale is just an indication that (in this particular story) the devil is a plot device and not a real entity. Other references to "Satan" have their own indications - as we have discussed in this thread.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 267 of 301 (448853)
01-15-2008 2:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 266 by ICANT
01-15-2008 1:30 PM
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Re: Re-Competely Human
ICANT writes: We do the things we do because we are a sinner. We inherit a sin nature from the first man and woman that was on the earth. You're illustrating very well the misunderstanding about "Satan". "Being a sinner" is utterly irrelevant. "Inheriting a sin nature" is utterly irrelevant. It's only what we do that counts. As Jesus said, loving our neighbours as ourselves is all that God wants us to do. As Jesus also said, we are judged - sheep versus goats - by what we do, not by what we believe. The misunderstanding is that "Satan" is somehow to blame for what we do. Our "sinful nature" is our nature. It's how God created us. It isn't an external influence of any kind.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 266 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 1:30 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 270 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:14 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 269 of 301 (448865)
01-15-2008 3:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 268 by ICANT
01-15-2008 2:50 PM
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Re: Re-Whatever
We all know the dogma. The point of the thread is to point out that the dogma is wrong. All you're saying is, "Nuh uh."
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 268 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 2:50 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 273 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:44 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 272 of 301 (448884)
01-15-2008 3:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 270 by ICANT
01-15-2008 3:14 PM
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Re: Re-Competely Human
ICANT writes: You want to talk about spiritual thing or evolutionary things? The topic isn't about either of those things.
I am sure here we will have many problems because you do not understand spiritual things. The problem in this thread is that people misunderstand the "Satan" concept in the Bible. When their misunderstanding is pointed out in detail - as it has been thoroughout this thread - they have no response to the details. Their only response is, "You don't understand spiritual things." It should be clear from the thread who understands and who is just parroting dogma. Respond to the actual points. Don't waste posts on dogma that we've all heard a thousand times before.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 270 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:14 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 275 of 301 (448893)
01-15-2008 3:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 273 by ICANT
01-15-2008 3:44 PM
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Re: Re-Whatever
ICANT writes: I see nowhere that the point was to show the dogma wrong. Read the rest of the thread. Greatest I Am makes it clearer what his intent was.
quote:
Should we love Satan?
I don't know how others would answer that question. Read the thread. Several people have answered the question.
Now if satan had not tried to exalt himself above God there would have never been a me. That's just more non-Biblical dogma (and yes, we have heard it all).
But in reality satan only secured you an opportunity to choose. God gave us the oppurtunity to choose long before "Satan" came on the scene. Our choices have been symbolized by various "Satan" characters in the Bible.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 273 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 3:44 PM | | ICANT has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 277 of 301 (448906)
01-15-2008 4:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 276 by ICANT
01-15-2008 4:14 PM
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Re: Re-Whatever
ICANT writes: I would love to be enlightened on this point. Like when, where, and even, when did satan come on the scene? Satan came on the scene at different times in different stories. Look for "Enter Satan" in the script. Here's an example:
quote:
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
A character named "Satan" walks into the board meeting. Make no assumptions about who he is. Treat Satan in Job like you would treat Robert Jordan in For Whom the Bell Tolls or Holden Caulfield in The Catcher in the Rye. The story tells you everything you need to know about the character. To think that there is one villain encompassed by every story in the Bible, with one back-story and one purpose, is the profound misunderstanding that this whole thread is about. Read it and begin your enlightenment.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 276 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 4:14 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 283 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 5:48 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 279 of 301 (448908)
01-15-2008 4:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 278 by Phat
01-15-2008 4:52 PM
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Re: Re-Whatever
Phat writes: Would you say that our first actual choice (symbolically) was to choose freewill over obedience? Somebody said recently that the first choice was between knowledge and obedience. I would suggest that that choice was the one God had in mind when He gave us free will.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 278 by Phat, posted 01-15-2008 4:52 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 280 by Phat, posted 01-15-2008 5:02 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 282 of 301 (448915)
01-15-2008 5:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 281 by ICANT
01-15-2008 5:07 PM
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ICANT writes: I do not see where he is trying to prove any dogma wrong only that his perfect world is right. I guess you missed it here:
quote:
I agree that Satan is a catch all name for all the evils we perceive. Message 7
and here:
quote:
To think that Jesus took over our responsibility for sin and forgave them all is false. Message 39
and here:
quote:
Man did not fall but with the help and guidance of Eve jumped into the job given to us by God in the beginning. Message 40
and here:
quote:
To think that any one religion is the holder of the one true God is foolish. Message 64
just to show a few examples. Looks to me like he's trying to overturn dogma.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 281 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 5:07 PM | | ICANT has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 288 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 6:45 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 284 of 301 (448921)
01-15-2008 5:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 280 by Phat
01-15-2008 5:02 PM
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Re: So In Other Words...
Phat writes: So in other words, GOD, being omnipotant and foreknowing ... I don't have much use for the notions of omnipotence and perfect foreknowledge.
... was not surprised in any way when Eve listened to that pesky snake with legs! The point of the story seems (to me) to be that Eve made the decision we all would (should) make. It's not so much a question of God being "surprised" as an explanation of why it was the right decision.
BTW...it wouldn't make any sense if God foreknew everything and yet was set to punish those who chose wrongly....would it? Again, foreknowledge doesn't really enter into it. It wouldn't make sense for God to punish us for decisions that He gave us the ability to make.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 280 by Phat, posted 01-15-2008 5:02 PM | | Phat has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 285 of 301 (448922)
01-15-2008 5:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 283 by ICANT
01-15-2008 5:48 PM
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Re: Re-Whatever
ICANT writes: So yes there is a bunch of little fellows running around out there. On the other hand they not so little they are a lot more powerful than you are. Sure, there are hobbits and leprechauns and unicorns too. If you insist on reading everything literally, there's not much hope for enlightenment.
“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here) “The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 283 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2008 5:48 PM | | ICANT has not replied |
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