The first 3 chapters of Genesis

I "attended" evangelical fundamentalist church services when I was still in the womb. Since birth, I have heard thousands of evangelical fundamentalist sermons and Bible studies in dozens of churches.The first I ever heard the term "original sin" was when I read Robert L. Short's The Parables of Peanuts as a teenager.
I am certain that my parents both went to their graves never having heard of "original sin".I never heard of "the Fall" until much much later (and I'm sure my parents never did). The "fall from grace" that was mentioned in those churches is nothing similar to "the Fall" as described here at EvC.It was never taught as an event (though the Adam and Eve story was considered to be a historical event). Rather, their "fall from grace" was recognized as symbolic of all mankind's need for God's grace.I don't know what your idea of "mainstream Christianity" is, but it sure doesn't tally with my experience. Edited by Ringo, : Busted "The" down to "the".

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I'm sure my position is not consistent with many peoples view of what constitutes mainstream Christianity. I have no problem with that. Each individual has their own view of both their religion and what Christianity should be.All I can do is present the best case for my position. I cannot be held responsible for their conceptions. Hopefully they too will present their best case for their opinions.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Do you really want to make the argument that the beliefs of Christianity are defined by what you personally happened to learn while growing up in an evangelical church? Do you really believe that argument by personal anecdote has significant value for this topic? If I'm wrong that fall from grace and original sin are central beliefs of Christianity then this should be easy to show since Christian theology is not a closely held secret, but is this the way to go about it?According to the Wikipedia article on original sin, some Christian groups deny original sin altogether (evangelicals not among them, however). I didn't know that. Those arguing against the concept of original sin might want to examine the arguments of these groups. Going back to Message 37, Jar says there was no such thing as "the Fall", primarily because he does not accept the concept of original sin. And you think that is closer to actual Christian belief then what the creationists are saying? Are you and Jar claiming that your views are somehow representative of mainstream Christianity? This is like bizzaro-land.--Percy

Rejoicing in such a pathetic view is something of which I should be ashamed. At least you have hit rock bottom. Of that I can take heart. God have mercy on your soul Jar. There is no one else left to care. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

Uh, no. I don't blame people for becoming frustrated with statements like this. You can have your own individual view of Christianity, but you can't say that what constitutes mainstream Christianity is just a matter of personal opinion. If that were true then by the same token what constitutes mainstream science would also be a matter of personal opinion.Certainly there are always issues on the margins, but fall from grace and original sin aren't among them. Your views on these issues are *not* congruent with mainstream Christianity, at least not here in the western world, which is what I hope we're talking about.So argue your point of view all you like. But if you characterize your unusual views (for a Christian) as mainstream, or claim that obviously mainstream views are not mainstream, then people will become frustrated. I know I am. There *is* a dominant Christian theology out there, and it isn't like it's ambiguous on the main points concerning the fall and original sin.--Percy

Not at all. I want to make the point that "the beliefs of Christianity" are not as monolithic as you make them out to be. Of course it does. It has every bit as much value as your personal opinion of what "the beliefs of Christianity" are. They are central beliefs of some Christians - not all. Once again, "Christian theology" is not monolithic. There are different versions and not everybody is privy to all of them. I was merely pointing out examples of that fact. I go about things my own way. Take it or leave it. There you go again, talking about "actual Christian belief". I told you about actual Christian beliefs that are closer to jar's than they are to the creationists'.(I'm a little surprized that you swallow what the creationists say about theology while at the same time decrying their thought processes about evolution. ) I'll repeat it again: I'm saying that there are facets of Christianity that you apparently know nothing about. You are essentially taking a position of ignorance.Once and for all: NOBODY is "representative" of mainstream Christianity. Who are you to decide what is "mainstream" and what is not?

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But I do NOT argue that my position is more than my position. I have been very clear about that. If folk believe that my position is incorrect, they are certainly encouraged to support their position. I will continue to support my position as I have in the responses to the points you raised.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

hmm i hope you really don't think to be a christian you *have* to believe this to be a christian, because no christian sect believes all of this.
do you think catholicism and orthodox are out there?, because they do not believe in the things people have said original sin is on here, infact all i've seen on EvC are people with their own interpretations claiming its mainstream and all christians agree with them, when in fact this is untrue

I didn't say "the beliefs of Christianity" are monolithic. Sheesh! I can see why the creationists are getting frustrated with you guys.I was maintaining the context of the discussion, which is that there is a mainstream of Christian belief, and that the fall and original sin are part of that belief, your personal story notwithstanding. Once again this mischaracterizes what I said and seems to forget the context. I was continuing to talk in the context of a mainstream of Christian belief, of which the fall and original sin are a part. I said, "the central beliefs of Christianity", not the beliefs of individual Christians, which I'm sure vary all over the block. Once again, I did not say it was monolithic. I was again continuing to talk in the context of mainstream Christian belief. This isn't hard to grasp. There is a central core of belief to Christianity. Well, if personal anecdote is your way, go ahead and argue ineffectively all you like. I thought the context of my comment was clear, but next time I'll be careful to put the "mainstream" modifier in front of Christian each and every time. I don't know what the creationists are saying about theology. I almost never come over to the religious forums. I'm responding to what you and Jar are saying about Christian beliefs. I'm saying that mainstream Christianity accepts the fall and original sin. I'm saying you guys are out of the mainstream, and that it is bizarro-world of you to try to make it seem otherwise. I'm sure there are many facets of Christianity I know nothing about. If you want to educate me about them then go ahead, but if you want to level insults then take it elsewhere.As I've already said, the fall and original sin are part of mainstream Christianity. If this isn't true then personal anecdote can be very illuminating, but it isn't effective rebuttal. Accusing people of ignorance isn't effective rebuttal either, and it's against the Forum Guidelines. Great! I presume that includes you and Jar? I'm not deciding what is mainstream and what is not. That's not the difference between us. The difference is that I believe there's a mainstream, and you apparently believe there isn't or that it's just a matter of personal opinion.--Percy

The restoration movement churches would usually be considered evangelical.

No, of course not. None! Are you sure?I'm not an evangelical Christian, you know. If I didn't state their beliefs in quite the right way then please make some allowances, but isn't my description pretty much what they believe? The fall, original sin, being saved by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Let's see. Catholicism accepts the fall and original sin, and salvation through Jesus Christ.And do you mean Orthodox as in Eastern Orthodix? That would be an eastern Christianity. I alluded to the fact that some sects view original sin differently when I mentioned the Wikipedia article on original sin in a previous post. But my points are about mainstream western Christianity. But I wasn't responding to them or the things they said. I was responding, at least originally, to Jar, who denies the existence of original sin. By any rational standard, on the issue of original sin, someone who accepts it is much closer to mainstream Christian beliefs than someone who doesn't. And arguing that what is mainstream and what isn't is just a matter of personal opinion, or that there is no mainstream, is just simply denial.--Percy

You're wallowing in weasel words. The mainstream of Christian belief, the set of core beliefs, if you will, is not a matter of personal opinion.Is there perhaps some confusion in this conversation? Are we talking past each other? I'm not talking about the beliefs of individual Christians, which I'm sure are very widely varied. I'm talking about organized religions with stated theologies. Identifying the common elements is a lot of detail work, but it's work that's already been done. The presence of the fall and original sin in most versions of Christianity cannot be in doubt. It is not a matter of personal opinion.--Percy Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning

I don't think I have ever suggested that my views or the views that I have experience with were "mainstream". I really don't understand why you're so hung up on that word.Maybe what we have here is a problem of terminology. The evangelicals that I know (and that includes almost everybody that I know) don't consider themselves "mainstream" either. They would probably associate the "mainstream" with the broad road that leadeth to destruction. If you're going to continue to talk about "a mainstream of Christian belief", you are going to have to define more clearly what you mean by "mainstream". But you have not established that "original sin" or "the Fall" are part of that core. All we have is your unsubstantiated opinion. I'm quite happy with the effects so far. People tell me they like what I say, people I've never spoken to defend what I say.... It's going quite smoothly, thank you. Before you do that, please tell us what you mean by "mainstream". I don't know where you could have gotten the impression that I think I'm in the "mainstream". I went to some trouble (was it in this thread or another?) to point out that "majority opinion" is worthless in religion. When I said you were taking a position of ignorance, I didn't mean it as an insult. I meant that you admitted to not knowing much about Christianity and yet you presume to decide what is central to Christianity. You apparently didn't know that lots and lots and lots of Christians don't accept "original sin" or "the Fall", and you brushed that fact aside as unimportant when I pointed it out to you.You arrived at your conclusion based on incomplete information and you ignored further information that was supplied to you. That's what I call arguing from a position of ignorance. It's like the person who says, "I don't know what art is but that ain't art." If you read more carefully, I think you'll find that I have never claimed to represent anybody but myself. I'm not responsible for jar, but I haven't seen him claim to represent anybody else either. Until you can define "mainstream" for us, and specify who is in it and who is not, it is just a matter of personal opinion. Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

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I beg your pardon? LOL Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Welcome to the twilight zone Percy. Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning