"THE EXODUS REVEALED" VIDEO

Lysimachus, I can't thank you enough for the patient and laborious work you have gone to in this thread, in spite of the repeated opposition, much of which has been ever so fickle. As I stated your arrival on the thread has been like an angel (messenger) from God. May he bless you richly for the work you've gone to, ever so patiently in order that we can all learn the important details of this remarkable discovery. I hope your leg is coming along good. Your pain and loss of time from that has not been pleasant, I'm sure. I guess your loss has been our gain in that we are priveleged by it to get this information as you likely have so much rest and recoup time on your hands. Again, much obliged for your work. buz.

Yawn., The fact is that you DID twist my words and you got caught. I on the ohter hand have not twisted yours in any similar way. Hopw then can I be "playing psychpology on myself" ? Of course I can't.As for your previus comments you may "scream inside" whenever you encounter someone who dares to criticise Wyatt but thats your problem. I stand by all the points I raised.(Just for your information Martin Gardner states that electronic engineers pass around the patent for the Hieronymous device "for laughs". John Campbell built such a device and found that it "worked" - and it sill "worked" when he followed a suggestion that he remove the components and replace them with a circuit diagram [_The New Apocrypha_, Sladek 1974] Page not found - Anchor Stone International . Looks like you have - as usual - failed to do YOUR research).

I will at least answer some dubious statements.First of all, You shouldn't be quoting Herodotus to confirm your exodus assumptions. Every serious ancient historian takes his claims to be totally exagerated. He probably wanted to make the Greek defence sound like the greatest feat ever accomplished.
But once you start to think about supplies and other military coniderations then it's simple to see that the statement is totally wrong. Plutarchus statement is most certainly an exaggeration. It is most probable that Alexander was outnumbered, but not 20 to 1. Most probably 4 or 8 to 1.And, about your usage of iron on chariots:
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htmMost scholars agree that:
c.1400-1350 BC Forged (tempered) Iron comes into use by the Hittites.So, there could not have been rust coming from Egytpian Chariots, sunk 1446 BC. Only Thutmoses III and Ramses III mention (in documents) iron once, and both accounts concern gifts. There is no (or worthless amount of) iron production until the end of the 7th century. So, show me your sources, because these are highly suspect.Another note:
Since Moller's pictures show no scale, it's difficult to make a reasonable measurement. These wheels could be 4 feet wide! Furthermore, they all have thick rims and espeacially the last one simply looks ridiculous. There's practically no room for the spokes.Final Question:
Where did you get this picture from? Can you show a more detailed version or a link where I can see it?
Would be appreciated.Lucy

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Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

Either these horses and cattle belonged to the Jews and the engulving flood started a little to soon.
Or it belonged to the Egytpians, who Moses claims didn't have any cattle and horses LucyThis message has been edited by Prince Lucianus, 07-27-2004 07:03 AM

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Bible
Search Results
"Death & Dead" were found 827 times in 751 verses.Thats a Whole Lotta Suffering

Lucianus,I’ve been perusing this thread for quite sometime now, and during the course of my reading I’ve noticed serious misinformation in your understanding of the issue in question.

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If you want to defend that case and Moller's one, explain why the city of Rameses is mentioned in Genesis and Exodus (so, as written by Moses), although it is build by Ramses the Great (roundabout) 150 years later.
You know that Thutmoses IV and the city Of Rameses can not be used for the same period.

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Your assertion reaches a critical error when one realizes that the city residence Pi-Ramesse is not equivalent to the similarly named Raamses (along with Pithom) mentioned in the Bible. Perhaps it is the same location, but it was not originally built by Rameses II, which would substantiate your argument.There are serious flaws in this assumption for several reasons.1. If the text was referring to the actual city built by Rameses II during the 19th dynasty, then Pi should precede the word Raamses, considering that the name had been in use much earlier than when that king ascended the throne. And also considering that the Bible puts Pi in Pithom, but why not in front of Raamses, if that site parallels with the one mentioned in scripture? Uphill even states:"The use of the word Pi or Per is significant. It has a wide application in Egyptian texts being derived from pr, (House). . . . In a wider context still it stood for a large temple area or the domain of a particular god, cf. Per Amun, Per Re, Per Ptah, etc. This usage introduces an administrative concept and implies a much greater area than the actual temple and its immediate surrounding."--E. P. Uphill, "Pithom and Raamses: Their Location and Significance," Journal of Near Eastern Studies 27 (1968): 292. See also, "Worterbuch der Agyptischen Sprache," I, 511.2. The site known as Qantir, which is also the generally accepted place for Pi-Ramesse has yielded strong evidence to suggest that Rameses built upon an earlier city that predates the latter city in its construction. Furthermore, L. Habachi, Manfred Bietak, Hans Goedicke and others have all indicated that the 18th dynasty occupied the site. Moreover, excavation reveals a pre-hyksos population of Asiatics settling in the area, somewhere during the end of the 12th or beginning of the 13th dynasties. And settlement in the area during the 18th century, well before the Ramessid kings, is confirmed by pottery found in tombs during the reign of Amenemhet III. Qantir was also served as a summer palace for the kings of the 12th and 13th dynasties, as well as for the Hyksos rulers. And the 18th dynasty saw a reoccupation of the site. Because Qantir was already inhabited during the time of Hyksos and earlier, it’s just not possible to attribute the construction of the site to slaves during Rameses II. Needless to say, both candidates for the location of Pithom also clearly show traces of Semitic inhabitation. This on top of the fact that Rameses II was notorious for building over or taking credit for previously constructed locations throughout Egypt. This one shouldn’t come as any surprise.3. Way before the possibility of the Pharaoh Rameses II, we find in Genesis 47:11 that Jacob and his family settled in the land of Raamses (or Goshen), clearly not referring to a city in particular, but a land. Rameses is also found as a title for Pharaohs prior to the character Rameses II (namely, Amenhotep III, who in the proposed hypothesis was the Pharaoh of the Exodus).4. Rameses II does not even fit with the dating of the event. No need to elaborate further on that point.In conclusion then, there is simply no compelling reason to assume that simply because Rameses II built a city bearing the name Pi-Ramesse that it coincides with the Raamses mentioned in scripture.I would like to assume that because you’ve decided to engage in a dialogue about this issue that you would be somewhat informed prior to taking such a definitive stance.

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Well. I say again, the wheels found so far are all of the thinner sort. I mean, they have a slim rim which looks as thick as two thumbs. So all you can do is make an assumption. There's nothing wrong with making an assumption, but assumptions don't prove anything. We have only pictures from graves and some buried wheels from tombs. That there were several types during Thutmoses reign might well be true. These wheels we see on pictures seem to present slim rims and slim spokes. The wheels we have from tombs also have slim rims and spokes.

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I’m happy to see you refraining from a complete dismissal of the possibility, unlike others who have been so motivated by sheer prejudice.Now on to the chariot issue. I think that a few things need to be taken into consideration before dismissing these chariot finds as possibly Assyrian simply for gratifying the desire to negate the discovery as posing any relevance to the Exodus event. Before wildly insinuating that an Assyrian cargo ship possibly lost some chariot wheels while traversing over Aqaba is more than far-fetch, considering that you have yet to establish Assyrian interest or even commerce in that area.The proposition, however, about some of the chariot wheels found at Aqaba to be of Assyrian origin might not be altogether unlikely at all, in fact, the Egyptian army being in possession of Assyrian or any other Semitic or Canaanite chariots would be consistent with Egyptian conquests in that area. Thutmose III records capturing over 800 Canaanite chariots, and expeditions to Assyria during the 18th dynasty were not uncommon.I would also like to remind you that Egyptian and Assyrian chariots during the 18th and 19th dynasties were virtually identical in design.The fact is, the findings in Aqaba support an event supported by much broader data, and which is strong evidence for the Biblical event. The different wheel designs are also indicative of 18th dynasty Egypt, 4, 6 and 8 spokes being used simultaneously during the period in which the Exodus most likely happened.

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Now, I know Egytpians were using iron, but hammered iron was not known in Egypt during Thutmoses IV reign. So it might have been cast, like nails, but this is very unlikely on a chariot now is it.
How did coral grow on this wooden structure BtW. It's evidently not been covered with sand, so the wood should have rotted away.

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Again, some of the chariot wheels identified could be of Assyrian origin, but most likely Egyptian employed. But then again, perhaps they were of Egyptian provenance. We know Egyptians used iron, and no one can say for sure the nature of the iron on the wheels, you seem to be taking this to a more caviling level.I wish I could respond more exhaustively, but I am already late for work work.P.S. Excuse any grammatical errors or mistakes. I don't have time to proofread.This message has been edited by Hydarnes, 07-27-2004 10:32 PM

Since these 'discoveries' supposedly occurred a few years ago-WHY HAS THIS NOT BEEN THE OBJECT OF LARGE EXPEDITIONS FROM THE BIG RESEARCH FOUNDATIONS AND UNIVERSITIES?WHY IS IT NOT THE LEAD STORY ON CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, BBC etc etc etc.WHY CAN NO ONE ELSE FIND THESE CHARIOTS?WYATT AND COHORTS PROVIDED INFORMATION WHERE ThIS STUFF IS?HOW CAN A KNOWN FRAUD LIKE WYATT CON PEOPLE WITH THIS NONSENSE?WHY CAN'T THE WISHFUL THINKERS OUT THERE REALISE THEY ARE SWALLOWING A PILE OF BULLSHIT FROM A KNOWN BULLSHITTER?ARE YOU THAT DESPERATE AND WEAK IN YOUR FAITH THAT YOU WILL GRASP ANYTHING, NO MATTER WHAT THE SOURCE, TO BOLSTER IT?PATHETIC!This message has been edited by Eta_Carinae, 07-27-2004 01:34 PM

Since I've been given to understand that you have a reasonable knowledge of Egyptian history perhaps you can explain something:Why are the arguments for the idea that Tuthmosis and Amenhotep titles at best based on questionable interpretations of evidence and at worst completely spurious ? Why is the contrary evidence ignored ? If there is adequate evidence to support it, why has it not been produced ?

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WHY HAS THIS NOT BEEN THE OBJECT OF LARGE EXPEDITIONS FROM THE BIG RESEARCH FOUNDATIONS AND UNIVERSITIES?

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WHY IS IT NOT THE LEAD STORY ON CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, BBC etc etc etc.

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WHY CAN NO ONE ELSE FIND THESE CHARIOTS?

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WYATT AND COHORTS PROVIDED INFORMATION WHERE ThIS STUFF IS?

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HOW CAN A KNOWN FRAUD LIKE WYATT CON PEOPLE WITH THIS NONSENSE?

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WHY CAN'T THE WISHFUL THINKERS OUT THERE REALISE THEY ARE SWALLOWING A PILE OF BULLSHIT FROM A KNOWN BULLSHITTER?

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ARE YOU THAT DESPERATE AND WEAK IN YOUR FAITH THAT YOU WILL GRASP ANYTHING, NO MATTER WHAT THE SOURCE, TO BOLSTER IT?

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PATHETIC!

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YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY????? I'LL TELL YOU WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BECAUSE IT IS GOD'S TRUTH AND TRUTH IS NNNNNEEEEEEVVVVVVVEEEEEERRRRRRRR POPULAR!!!!!!!!!! THE DEVIL HAS THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD IN HIS HANDS, AND HE DOESN'T WANT THE WORLD TO KNOW IT!!!!!!!!IT WAS ON CNN, 20/20, UNSOLVED MYSTERIES, AND A FEW OTHER WORLD NEWS SOURCES....BUT YOU WANNA KNOW WHAT THEY DID??????? THEY BELIEVED THE STORIES, BUT SIMPLY JUMPED TO THE NEXT NEWS SOURCE!!!!!!! IT SHOWS YOU THAT PEOPLE DON'T WANT MUCH TO DO WITH THINGS WHEN IT COMES TO THE BIBLE AND GOD'S WORD....BUT IF IT IS FANTASY SUCH AS WITCHES, DRAGONS AND WIZARDS, THAN IT TRAVELS ALL OVER THE WORLD WITH EASE AND PEOPLE FALL FOR IT.....THE WAY THIS WORLD HAS FALLEN FOR THE MOST STUPID FILM HARRY POTTER GOES TO SHOW YOU WHERE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE'S MINDS ARE....IN THE GUTTER!!!!!!!!!!THIS IS WHY THINGS TO DO WITH TRUTH ARE NOT POPULAR, BECAUSE IT REQUIRES A "SUBMISSION" TO A HIGHER POWER...AND YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE THAT!!!!!!!!!!

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~Lysimachus

Lys, please stop claiming a) that scientists are tools of the devil and b) that there is overwhelming evidence so our concerns don't matter, and actually answer my question. Which scientists, specifically (full name and verifiable credentials) have come out and said that they have seen these wheels in situ, that they are mid-18th dynasty artifacts, and that they are there as the result of the waters of the Red Sea crashing in on an army rather than chariots being lost overboard? Just, for once, answer that question without trying to divert attention with devil worshipping claims or comments about how it doesn't matter.

Isn't it a tad more likely that it's complete BS fabricated by a known fraud Ron Wyatt that even most Creationist groups call a dope.This would be about the biggest archeological find in history where untold numbers of professional (note the word) archeologists would make their careers on - never mind reporters getting Pulitzers - yet somehow it sank without a trace. LOLLet me see - because it isn't real!

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Isn't it a tad more likely that it's complete BS fabricated by a known fraud Ron Wyatt that even most Creationist groups call a dope.
This would be about the biggest archeological find in history where untold numbers of professional (note the word) archeologists would make their careers on - never mind reporters getting Pulitzers - yet somehow it sank without a trace. LOL

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Let me see - because it isn't real!

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You don't begin to know beans about Wyatt's discoveries, and no one is interested in hearing more clueless defamation that isn't worth the post it's written on.

Come on. Most of us here are very familar with Wyatt's claims and realize that he is nothing but a fraud, and not even a very good one. LOL.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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First of all, You shouldn't be quoting Herodotus to confirm your exodus assumptions. Every serious ancient historian takes his claims to be totally exagerated. He probably wanted to make the Greek defence sound like the greatest feat ever accomplished.

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But once you start to think about supplies and other military coniderations then it's simple to see that the statement is totally wrong. Plutarchus statement is most certainly an exaggeration. It is most probable that Alexander was outnumbered, but not 20 to 1. Most probably 4 or 8 to 1.

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No doubt, you seem to be stretching my words. I never once quoted Herodotus to confirm my exodus assumptions. You seem to be inferring that I quoted Herodotus’ claims concerning the numbers as 100% factual. Did you notice that I had originally said that the majority of sources agree within an approximate range between 1.5 to 5.6 million? A number of 1.5 to 2 million military units under Xerxes was most certainly very probable seeing the fact that when Xerxes went on his expedition, he not only had his own Persian army, but he had the aid of the Medes, Cissians, Hyrcanians, Assyrians, Bactrians, Scyths, Indians, Arians, Parthians, Chorasmians, Sogdians, Gandarians, Caspians, Sarangians, Pactyans, Utians, Mycians, Paricanians, Arabians, Ethiopians, Libyans, Paphlagonians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Mysians, Thracians, Chalybians, Cabalians, Milyans, Moschians, Mares, Colchians, Alarodians, Sasparians, and the Islanders from the Erythraean Sea.And then we have the Persians, Medes Phenicians, Syrians, Egyptians, Cyprians, Cilicians, Pamphylians, Lycians, Dorians, Carians, Ionians, Ilanders, Aeolians, Helespontians all contributing ships for the invasion by sea!!These were ALL the nations involved in Xerxes’ expedition!! The whole point here is, the numbers were AT LEAST past the 1 million mark for military units. This is not including woman and children left back at the cities. I only provided the higher figures to show the diversity of opinions on this subject. Scripture even gives you a glimpse as to how big this massive invasion must have been in Daniel 11:2: [i] And now will I show thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than [they] all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.. This was prophesied by Daniel by the way, before it even happened!It might also be worthy to note that when we speak of 2 million people at the Exodus, this figure is not to be equated with the number of Hebrews alone. Most likely no more than 1.5-1.8 million were actually Hebrew. The rest were part of the mixed multitude (Ex. 12:38, Numb. 11:4 & Neh. 13:3) of which the scripture makes plain. These were of other Canaanite, Semitic, Egyptian, and mixed blooded origin that intermingled with the Hebrew population. They probably made up roughly 1/5th of the population that exited Egypt. We must remember, the Bible only speaks of 600,000 men, but does not mention woman. In my personal opinion there could even be the rare possibility that the term men being applied here is representative as human beings or individuals, but it is probably unlikely seeing Ex. 12:37 ends with six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. Assuming the bible is literally only referring to able-bodied males; we would have to add an equal number of women plus some children. This would amount to no more than about 1.5-1.8 million Hebrew individuals. This range is given based on the fact that the number 600,000 given in scripture is only an approximate value, seeing that the verse (Ex. 12:37) assigns the word about to the number.

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And, about your usage of iron on chariots:
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/trades/metals.htm

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Most scholars agree that:

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c.1400-1350 BC Forged (tempered) Iron comes into use by the Hittites.

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So, there could not have been rust coming from Egytpian Chariots, sunk 1446 BC. Only Thutmoses III and Ramses III mention (in documents) iron once, and both accounts concern gifts. There is no (or worthless amount of) iron production until the end of the 7th century. So, show me your sources, because these are highly suspect.

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I will let Hydarnes deal with this question in more depth. However, the answer is quite clear that the Egyptians employed enemy Canaanite chariots as trophies of war. The few pieces of excavated coral with evidence of rust stain only confirm this.

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Another note:
Since Moller's pictures show no scale, it's difficult to make a reasonable measurement. These wheels could be 4 feet wide! Furthermore, they all have thick rims and espeacially the last one simply looks ridiculous. There's practically no room for the spokes.

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It probably was never addressed because it was never considered an issue. If the size of the wheels were outside the typical range, it would have most certainly been addressed. I’m sure Nassif Mohammed Nassan would have noticed this instantly.As for stating there is no room for the spokes, I feel you are beginning to get somewhat nitpicky. It all has to do with how the viewer wishes to interpret one thing from another, and I personally do not see a problem in this area. The thickness of the coral contributes to making the room for the spokes seem limited. The wheel seems small and chunky, yet when I look at a number of reliefs, I see small chunky wheels depicted of similar nature.

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Final Question:
Where did you get this picture from?
[image]
Can you show a more detailed version or a link where I can see it?
Would be appreciated.

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Glad you mentioned it. I originally scanned in the picture from Moller’s book, The Exodus Case, since I had originally thought it was not available online. Come to find out, I found it in two other places, and in much bigger detail: I found this one here: The Hebrew Red Sea Crossing (Exodus)
And this one I found here: http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htmPicture of this relief was taken at Egypt’s Cairo MuseumAnd here is another one of interest: Also found here: http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htmThis message has been edited by Lysimachus, 07-27-2004 04:52 PM edited to fix page width - The QueenThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 07-27-2004 11:57 PM

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~Lysimachus

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Come on. Most of us here are very familar with Wyatt's claims and realize that he is nothing but a fraud, and not even a very good one. LOL.

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Prove it then. I've seen the man speak, and I've talked to people who knew him personally. If you just look at his countenance, you can plainly see in his face that he is not lieing. He was a very humble giving man, and loved everyone very much. Critics did not bother him because he knew that he was doing what God had assigned him. He was not out to make money either. Evidence for this is based on the fact that when he mentioned the prices to purchase his material (videos, tapes, books, literature, etc.), he said that for those who did not have the funds to purchase his material, he would find a way for them to have it anyway (for free). But he entreated the audience to be honest about it.

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~Lysimachus

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Come on. Most of us here are very familar with Wyatt's claims and realize that he is nothing but a fraud, and not even a very good one. LOL.

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If your input in this thread is any indication of the level of education acquired by his detractors, then I'm afraid it's pretty egregious.