Why did God forgive our sins?

Who exactly will go to hell in your opinion? All non-believers? All those who believe in "false gods"? Or just those who are "bad" regardless of belief?Do all realistically have the choice that you claim? Do those raised in India of the Hindu faith have equal access to your form of retribution as you (or, I suppose, I)? The choice is indisputably easier for some than for others. No?
Those who are raised to believe are far more likely to do so. In fact personal choice seems relatively low down the list in determining which faith or indeed any faith, one subscribes to. How does that work with regard to your free choice theory?Why do those raised from birth to believe deserve recognition when all they have done is (in many cases) unquestioningly accept what they have been taught?
Why do those who disbelieve deserve less recognition if their whole upbringing, method of thinking, professional training and inherent nature is to question the workings of reality with skepticism and demand for evidence?Is the "choice" as simple as you make it sound or are the odds stacked in favour of some and desperately against others on an arbitary basis?

To point out the errors and curb the excesses of our often brash and excessive distant cousins

Excellent. There is hope for me yet. So the fact that I consider the bible a work of almost complete fiction won't count against me then?

I don't understand the first sentance here. What exactly does it mean to stand before God in Adam? What would I have to do (or not do) for this to occur?Forgive my biblical ignorance but does this also suggest Adam went to hell? Eve too?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

But why make the tree? Why make the test? Why make man such that he (or as the story goes - she) would knowingly fail the test? Why make man at all if he knows the fate of man already.God made man knowing that he would fail the one test that God knowingly gave him and was then outraged at the result of the test.It's ridiculous.

So the vast majority of the population of the world today (including myself ) are destined to the fires of hell according to you.In many (most?) cases this seems to be more a matter of luck in terms of where one was born and what the predominant culture is there. How can God justify condemning an unquestioning hindu from India whilst rewarding an unquestioning Christian from Dallas?

Nor is it the fault of the Hindu child raised to believe in Hinduism that they do not believe in Jesus Christ.What is their fate according to you?If we are looking for fault wose fault is any of mans misdoings if God created mn knowing he would misdo?

Oh I make no such denial. Persistence in denial of that ceased long ago. Well you seem very confident. I might even consider that arrogance and as such a form of "rottenness".So what does happen to babies who die too young toc comprehend any of this?

Who did know the truth?I blame God. He could have made all know. He could at least have made it a level playing field. Punishing individuals for something over which they have little or no control is just wrong.I want nothing to do with this small minded and punitive God. Anyone with a sense of morality should stand up to this despicable tyrant!! Join my crusade!! Fear not the wrath of the tyrant. Good will triumph in the end.

If all we need is a good heart without even being consciously aware of god or any of the related paraphenalia then this all seems much more reasonable than ICANTs view (for example).It does however beg the question as to why we need the bible, religion, punishments, rewards or anything else.If good heart will suffice ones beliefs and acceptance are neither here nor there.

Well who is ultimately responsible? God obviously.
You cannot reasonably punish people for ignorance of something that you provided them no direct personal knowledge of.
This is like a government making secret laws and then arresting peple when they unknowingly break them. Outrageaous. It is not what pleases me. It is a question of right and wrong. If the God you describe ran a nation (ignoring the whole omnipotence thing for one second) he would be called a vengeful dictator wreaking unjust punishments on his bewildered citizens for crimes they did not even know they had committed. Eternal damnation for blissful ignorance seems a little harsh to say the least.Honestly ICANT it seems you are too fearful to stand up for what is right. Well I say no! If he exists it is time we stood up to this tyrant and let him know that such unjust punishments will not be tolerated lying down. If we all stand together we can change these wicked ways.

We all experience this from time to time. I would question that God is the cause or reason for this. After a bitch of a day I recently sat in my garden with my son and pointed out the stars to him. I told him that we were seeing them as they were millions of years ago and described what little I know about the formation and deaths of these amazing phenomenon. He is too little to understand the words never mind the concepts but he sat on my lap, looked at the stars and listened quite contentedly. I have rarely felt such love and selflessness. At that point the feeling you describe of knowing that everything would be OK in a way that transcends the mundane day to day of existence swept through me.
I have no doubt you have felt this sort of thing. I have no doubt that you deeply love your God in a way that can inspire these sorts of feelings.
However I do doubt that the object of your love exists in any way shape or form that actually exists beyond your mind and your mind alone. It is this indescribable horror, the fact that God even allows such a thing to exist and his criteria for deciding who does and does not receive this abominable fate that is the question here.Why would a loving God create such a harsh punishment? Is not separation from God punishment enough?
Who exactly does not meet the criteria required to avoid such a fate? I am sure that my reason and rationality will forbid me from ever being a believer in the way that you are. For this seemingly minor "crime" am I to face an eternity of torture? Likewise those who remain sworn Hindus (for example) to their dying breath by virtue of culture and opportunity if nothing else.What is the exact fate of all of us good hearted but very consciously aware non or "wrong" believers (in your opinion)?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

No but nor was I legally responsible for my actions as a minor. Some yes. Some no. My parents were far from ideal role models The queen is a pointless distraction and complete waste of time and money (but that is maybe another topic). The real lawmakers can be demonstrated against and ultimately voted out if they get too full of themselves and start creating unreasonable laws. I love your attempt at invoking the queen as some sort of argument and your use of bizzare pseudo British vernacular to make your point. Is that really how you guys see us?
Take it eazy guvnor. Aint no argey bargey to be ad ere.
The "bobbies" (we usually call them police officers or, if you want to get colloquial, "filth") don't make the laws. Nor do they act as judge jury and executioner. They make the arrests and judges/juries deal out the verdicts and punishments. I think we might even have originated this system of justice.......... The "state boundaries" are irrelevant. God makes the rules. God deals out the verdicts. God decides the punishments. God is the lawmaker, the police, the judge, the jury, the executioner and every step in-between and beyond.
God is the ultimate tyrant be any definition that ignores the fact he is God and supposedly can do no wrong. And who allows the devil to run Earth? Why does he do this? Does he enjoy suffering? Or is he just on the ultimate power trip? Ignorance, or even objection, to utterly unjustifiable laws is not a reason to blame anyone. Any decent God, any decent ruler, would take these things into account. Your God is not decent. He is a tyrant. I very much doubt it The point is that the actions that you believe your God takes would be, if carried out by any other being, condemned as evil and wrong by you, me and almost everyone else.You excuse and make exception to these actions of God ony because he is God. But who says God can do no wrong? Ah yes of course God!! The ultimate in circular reasoning and the ultmate tyrant's ultimate aim. Namely unquestioning acceptance that all he does is goodOnly because you and others like you think God can do no wrong do you accept these atrocities as anything other than that which they are. You devise convluted reasons and exceptions as to why normal moral judgments do not apply and give your God a free pass to do whatever he says he should do. Unquestioningly. This is the dream ticket of the ultimate tyrant. What more could a tyrant wish for than a populace who will forgive and even praise any action? No matter how evil or unjust? Jeez I am no satanist. Nor do I aim to end up in a river of fire. But I do believe you are wrong.I have a theory - If there is a devil he has positioned himself as the God that you and those like you believe in. It is the ultimate con trick. He can do no wrong because those who think they worship God will tell us why morality does not apply to this being that they woship. Any atrocity, any punishment, any evil is excused as Gods will by those who "know" God is unquestioningly good and that his actions are thus justified.
If the God you worship is the devil in disguise it answers a lot of questions about the world and the pain evil and suffering it contains. It even explains the delusion that God loves you. Would not a powerful devil be capable of tricking those who would defend his evil actions into thinking that they do so out of love for a God of good?Think about it.Of course you will "know" that the God you worship is not the devil and is ultimately good. But this all part of the great cosmological con. The ultimate omnipotent tyrant has made you believe this so of course you will not doubt it and probably never will. I am not the one who would justify the condemnation and eternal punishment of those whose only fault is ignorance. You are.
Which one of us can truly be said to be morally "good" regarding such a question?The only path to free yourself from this tyranny of evil is to listen to reason and rationality and to question that which you "know" to be true. Join me on this questEnjoy.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

I am sure she was but the position she holds is, in my opinion, pointless and archaic. God made the devil including his wickedness.
God made man including his potential for wickedness.
God made the rules that man had to obey knowing he would fail.
God knew the outcome of all of his creations at the point of creation.
I don't really see how you can devolve God of all responsibility here?The bottom line is that if God created all he is at root as responsible for the existence of wickedness and evil as he is good. Obviously.
If he did not want wickedness to exist he simply should not have created it. Obviously.
If he does not want wickedness to exist he should simply banish it. Obviously. Such tests would be very unnecessary if eveil was just banished from existence. Or even better never created. By God. Why create a choice?
Why create in man a being so evidently bad at making the right choices?
The misery resulting from this test that he knew we would fail is all just very unneceesary. First offence and a law that you can conceivably demonstrate that you were unaware of and the sentance is likely to be very light indeed. Probably some sort of caution. Certainly not eternal damnation. Erm I thought we were discussing ignorance of the laws?
Is the prisoner ignorant of the pardon he has consciously chosen to reject? Quite obviously not.
A better anology would be if the pardon was made without telling the prisoner he had been potentially pardoned. Then killing him anyway because he did not formally accept the pardon he was completely unaware of.
This is the equivelenet of damning those who, for example, were raised Hindu.By telling the prisoner of the pardon available you have proved my point for me. Ignorance is an unjustifiable reason for damnation of this sort. I have spent much time as a volunteer myself and certainly do not advocate material wealth as the ultimate aim of anything. I don't really understand your point here but I suspect you are making assumptions about me that are frankly unjustified. Tough love huh? Very tough indeed apparently.
Paid for my sins? But what sins could I commit that your God has not already committed? Murder? Tick. Genocide? Tick. Jealousy? Tick. Etc.As you know I am a complete non-believer. God, the devil etc. etc. are all a complete fantasy as far as I am concerned.
However as a non-believer I can see the appeal of a good forgiving Jesus style peace loving God. I can see why people might want to believe in this God and follow his teachings. Although I dispute the need for supernatural elements I can see that the world would be a better place if people were more inclined along these lines.What completely baffles me is why anyone would ever want to worship the fire and brimstone God. The God who allows people to end up in a lake of fire. The God who will eternally condemn people to damnation for being raised in the wrong faith through no fault of their own. The God whose actions are comparable to the worst kind of despotic tyrant. The God that people like you seem to want to justify.I just don't understand why you would worship this God or seek to justify his actions out of anything but fear.
And I don't think fear is a good reason to believe in anything and certainly not a thing to celebrate in any way. If you think my lack of faith is grounded in my desire to be unrestriceted to do "bad" things without regard for the consequences, as you seem to be implying, then you are very much mistaken. Again you make unjustified assumptions.
The great surveillance camera in the sky is not a good reason to be good. Fear is not a good reason to be good. The desire to be good is the best reason to be good.
Yes well I didn't expect you to take me up on my offer. If you had I would have been lost as to what this journey actually consists of or what the next step is. Application of reason and some analysis of why you believe what you do I suppose.Anyway I have been playing devils advocate with you in the metaphorical sense at least. Unlike the bible I hope you have not taken this a little too literally

Again - No he has not. Those who do not know there is a choice that they need to make, those who have no reason or basis to make that choice do not have the choice you speak of. Obviously!You say God loves us? You say we are his children? If it was the son of the president facing death at the allotted hour do you think the president would leave knowledge of his pardon to the vagaries and inefficiencies of beauracracy? Or would he make damn sure that his troubled son knew of the pardon and the choice that he needed to make to save himself?An omnipotent God truly interested in the free choice of individual men, as you suggest, could and would take measures to ensure that each individual had equal opportunity to make the right choice. Condemning people whose only crime is ignorance to eternal damnation is unjust and would suggest an indifferent God. At best.Choices require knowledge. Without knowledge there is no choice. Without choice there is no justice. Is your God an unjust God?
Would you unquestioningly accept the level of justice you are advocating from any other source than God? Or would you consider such a system unjust in every other scenario imaginable? I have indeed had more opportunity than many others. It is those who have little or no opportunity to even consider the question that I speak of above.
However even those Godless wannabe knowitalls such as myself who are aware of the message you bring but who see no reason that is reasoned or viable to believe it - even we are not rejecting God out of malice. Whatwver you may believe to the opposite. I could not stay true to myself and have faith in your evidenceless asertions. If God gave man his rationality and ability to reason I would suggest that he should expect us to use rationality and reason and to not condemn the conclusions and choices that this results in. A serial child abuser and murderer would surely invoke the wrath of your God for his actions? No? Where the actions of God would be undeniably considered as wicked if undertaken by any other being the only justification that is possible is that 'it is God and he can do what he wants without judgement'. This is no justification at all. It is a flawed cop-out of an argument.