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Author Topic:   Debunking the Evolutionary God of 'Selection'
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 323 (806182)
04-23-2017 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 9:32 AM


Re: Mutations dont make zebras run faster
Davodjay writes:
Magic mutations wont make a zebra run faster...
Why not?
Explain in detail why genes can't determine the length of a zebra's legs. And then explain in detail why longer legs won't help a zebra run faster.

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Porosity
Member (Idle past 2084 days)
Posts: 158
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013


(2)
Message 32 of 323 (806187)
04-23-2017 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 9:45 AM


There have been no beneficial mutations, thats a pipe dream of evolutionists. Explosions and radiation do not create positive changes that ever help a KIND or species.
Get with the times, even your creationist colleagues at AIG disagree with you. The new spin is beneficial mutations can't cause speciation, which is incorrect but that's another argument.
Beneficial mutations have been observed and observing natural processes is not a pipe dream, it's simply an observation. Your denial to see the world as it is, is self inflicted.
Edited by Porosity, : Doh!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Davidjay, posted 04-23-2017 9:45 AM Davidjay has replied

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 33 of 323 (806188)
04-23-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 11:26 AM


Re: BACK TO THE TOPIC !
Davidjay writes:
Tangle, again color change is not evolution, nor a mutational change of significance, its called VARIATION in colour....as life selects life, and the colour change makes them more hidden than the other colours
Forget mutation for the moment - this is a discussion about natural selection.
Do you accept that changes in the environment caused the population of moths to change colour, first to black and then back to white? Do you accept that the mechanism that caused it was the selective predation?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 34 of 323 (806189)
04-23-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Davidjay
04-23-2017 11:58 AM


Re: On selection
Hi Davidjay,
I've been on vacation, so I'm coming in a little later than the others. I'll try simple first;
But of course we know there are no beneficial mutations that have ever existed that lived and created a new species. ...
Please show your evidence, if you want to talk science. If you want to talk belief then you can blather on all you want.
Curiously belief has had remarkably little effect on reality.
But of course we know there are no beneficial mutations that have ever existed that lived and created a new species. ...
Polyploid mutations create new species. The species live, and therefore natural selection means the mutation is beneficial. QED
See how that works? Evidence shows my claim is valid, it has been observed, and it refutes your unsubstantiated claim.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 35 of 323 (806191)
04-23-2017 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by JonF
04-23-2017 9:25 AM


Re: Probability
JonF writes:
I predict that if you toss a fair coin 1,000 times half of them will come up heads.
Er, the probability of that is 9.3326E-302 not 1.
Something near to half of them will come up heads, but the probability of any one specific outcome is 1/2 raised to the power of the number of trials.
Actually 9.33x10-302 is the probability of a specific sequence. What you actually want is the sum of the probabilities of all 1000 toss sequences where precisely 500 heads appear. The probability of each sequence is 9.33x10-302, but how many such sequences are there? I believe there are 1000!/(500!*500!) such sequences, and multiplying this by 9.33x10-302 you get around 0.025. So the odds of getting exactly 500 heads after 1000 tosses is about 2.5%.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Fix math typo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by JonF, posted 04-23-2017 9:25 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 323 (806193)
04-23-2017 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Percy
04-23-2017 4:33 PM


Re: Probability
What we're talking about here is the binomial distribution.
The probability of getting exactly 50 heads is the product of the probability of one way of getting exactly 50 heads (0.5 raised to the power 100) and the number of different ways that 50 heads can come up (100 choose 50, or 100!/50!50!). Many calculators have a binomial coefficient function (sometimes called the number of combinations).
If I input the numbers into my calculator correctly, I got a probability of slightly less than 0.08.
Added by edit: Oops, I misread the numbers. That's 500 heads out of 1000 tosses. And reading Percy's comment more carefully, he already got this. My apologies.
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.

I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

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JonF
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 37 of 323 (806195)
04-23-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Percy
04-23-2017 4:33 PM


Re: Probability
Whoops, you're right..

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9486
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 38 of 323 (806196)
04-23-2017 5:08 PM


I don't think you guys are helping......
The probability/chance of a head is 50:50; p=0.5. A thousand tosses will give you 500 heads, give or take a few.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 323 (806197)
04-23-2017 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Tangle
04-23-2017 5:08 PM


Sorry, I'm now full-metal pedant.
If you toss a coin 1000 times, the probability is less than 1 out of 20 that the number of heads will be less than 468 or greater than 532.
That is, the 95% confidence interval for the proportion of heads is 0.500 plus or minus 0.032.

I believe in a relatively equal society, supported by institutions that limit extremes of wealth and poverty. I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. -- Paul Krugman

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Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2467 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 40 of 323 (806200)
04-23-2017 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Davidjay
04-20-2017 9:34 AM


Davidjay writes:
Evolutionists admit their so called mutations all come about at random, but they seem to have deified their natural selction of this so called beneficial mutations with a non random deity called "SELECTION'.
So lets logically and systematically debunk this deity of theirs....
Well? We're waiting. How many posts are you going to make before you start "logically and systematically" debunking selection?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Davidjay, posted 04-20-2017 9:34 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Davidjay, posted 04-24-2017 11:33 AM bluegenes has replied

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 41 of 323 (806291)
04-24-2017 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Porosity
04-23-2017 2:54 PM


I only defend my own words, and works and design, what others do is their choice and their belief system.
I am not a groupie like evolutionists are, which is why I tell them to try and agree together before posting. This because one states one thing and another states another. It gets rather confusing, probably because they are confused and because its only a theory which gets compounded by more theories of more theories....
See study and read
GroupFaithversusIndividualFaith
It applies to all things, all religions and all principles.
We` all must answer for our own lifes and thoughts, and decisions rather than blaming others or just going along with others. Be responsible and mature. Thats the law of the Lord

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 42 of 323 (806294)
04-24-2017 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by bluegenes
04-23-2017 5:38 PM


Evolution Selection supposedly sustains life ? ?
Selection is your god, not mine. Please defend your faith and state something about your beloved nonrandom selector who selects living mutations that somehow someway are already viable and ALIVE.
Ahhh you dont say your god brings them to life, you dsay your god keeps them alive by not killing them into extinction with HER environmental conditions.
OK, we are making progress, you say evolution is a SUSTAINER and PROVIDER of magic mutations that are alive and viable, and 'She' or MOTHER NATURE or a divine environment keeps them alive by her conditions, and selects and sustains these exploding mutational new life forms.
Sort of like a radiation scientist picking out new mutated life forms that are radioactive that aren;t effected by a radioactive environment....
Im not buying it, or ready to honor your god of SELECTION and her SUSTAINING ABILITIES of what is already alive.
Now we are making progress.... as logically speaking evolutionists can not say selection gives anything LIFE, it only supposedly sustains or selects life forms, or sustains life forms under her wings.....
Ahah, I knew I or we would further this debate and come to the basic premise of evolutionary theory or lies.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by bluegenes, posted 04-23-2017 5:38 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 43 of 323 (806296)
04-24-2017 11:37 AM


Evolutionists cant defend their god of Selection
Evolutionists by their very basic principle of luck and chance can not and will not defend their scientific (religious) belief system. Therefore all they can attempt to do is go on the offensive and blame creation and creationists ideas and laws.
Evolutionists can not debate. This because they are not used to answering questions of their beloved forced beliefs. They have never thought them through. They are sacro-sanct and not to be questioned, so they know not any answers.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by ringo, posted 04-24-2017 11:43 AM Davidjay has replied
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Davidjay 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2319 days)
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 44 of 323 (806297)
04-24-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Chiroptera
04-23-2017 5:24 PM


Benefical Mutation probability is ZERO
Chir, when the probability of a benefical mutation ever taking hold is ZERO in one generation, then in the following generation it's probability is zero as well.
All evolution hinges on the theory that there has to be a beneficial mutation somewhere, someplace at sometime.
Zero however is zero is zero is zero, and stays ZERO.
Recombination and variability within a kind is a probabilty, as with inbreeding and contenental DRIFT separation, isolation separation, racist separation, nationalism separation, but still the KIND is the same..
SEE Evolution is a Racist Doctrine
But no new kinds or species of mankind or animal kind has developed from so called beneficial mutations or even one beneficial mutation.
No probability means no probabilty and their graphs becoming straight lines with NO PROBABILITY, and they have no driving force or new god or new species.
Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.

.
The Lord is the GREAT SCIENTIST as He created SCIENCE and ALL LAWS and ALL MATTER and of course ALL LIFE. God is the Great Architect, Designer and Mathematician. Evolutioon is not mathematical and says there is no DESIGN but that all things came about by sheer LUCK.
.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Chiroptera, posted 04-23-2017 5:24 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 323 (806298)
04-24-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Davidjay
04-24-2017 11:37 AM


Re: Evolutionists cant defend their god of Selection
Davidjay writes:
Evolutionists by their very basic principle of luck and chance can not and will not defend their scientific (religious) belief system.
You're the one who isn't answering his posts. If you can defend your belief system, do it. All you've done so far is declare victory without even getting in the game.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Davidjay, posted 04-24-2017 11:37 AM Davidjay has replied

Replies to this message:
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