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Author Topic:   Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism?
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 121 of 132 (824904)
12-04-2017 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by NoNukes
12-04-2017 9:18 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
NCE writes:

And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.

I'm going to assume that you don't believe anybody is for such a thing given your comments. So why'd you bring that up?

Because I do believe that some people are for such a thing, as I've said:

quote:
It seems to me that the leftists want to force equality of outcome.

I'm not exactly sure how they want to go about this, because I haven't seen anything explicit, but what I've seen implies what I've said.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 9:18 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 12-05-2017 12:29 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 128 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 2:21 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 122 of 132 (824905)
12-05-2017 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 10:13 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
[qs]And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity[qs]

Because I do believe that some people are for such a thing, as I've said:

Yes, you do believe that. That's why I said this:

I am not pegging you on either end of the spectrum. What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity.

To which you responded:

I don't think either of those things.

Not sure why you bothered to deny thinking that way, only to come back and acknowledge it now.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 10:13 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2017 9:26 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 123 of 132 (824914)
12-05-2017 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by NoNukes
12-05-2017 12:29 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Not sure why you bothered to deny thinking that way, only to come back and acknowledge it now.

They're completely different statements:

A state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.

People who come out differently than you are restrictors of opportunity.

I don't know how you can see those as the same thing, nor why you're pushing for it. If you want to know what I think then just ask - there's no reason to try to twist my words into a contradiction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 12-05-2017 12:29 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ringo, posted 12-05-2017 11:11 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 124 of 132 (824927)
12-05-2017 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2017 9:26 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
New Cat's Eye writes:

A state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.


Suppose a bank robber takes the opportunity to rob a bank. Suppose a surgeon takes the opportunity to charge $100,000 for a life-saving operation. What's the difference? Why does the state restrict one opportunity and not the other?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2017 9:26 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 125 of 132 (825004)
12-06-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Tangle
12-04-2017 9:20 AM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
Right, a worker's revolution, how very un-American.

Not so much revolution as evolution. Revolution has the disadvantage of leaving a power vacuum leading to things like the French Revolution aftermath and ISIS.

Social evolution on the other hand changes power system with adaptations -- the union general strikes, women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, ... very American.

If your country actually wanted more socially conscious policies and practices it would have voted for them, ...

We have. FD Roosevelt was the most popular president because of social policies he got enacted. The last on his list was a new bill of rights for further social programs, like health.

... but even obviously beneficial things like good health care ts voted down let alone the sort of state intervention you're talking about. ...

And this is an evolving situation. We certainly have better health care under the ACA than before, and there certainly is still work to do, but that's not because people don't want it, it's because rich people/corporations don't want to lose their obscene profits buying votes of corrupt congress members.

I can give you some ideas if you like but you'll need to get your cognitative dissonance under control first.

Try me.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2017 9:20 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2017 12:48 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 126 of 132 (825007)
12-06-2017 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 11:13 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Only if (a) your pay is large enough to leave you with the discretionary money (wages above living costs) to afford the stock and (b) if there is stock available to buy (not all companies issue stock).

Both of those are true.

For you, but not for everyone. Certainly not for anyone working at minimum wage. Certainly not for anyone working for a company that does not issue stock (most small businesses).

Would I be right in assuming you have some investments (IRA, savings, mutual funds, etc)? That gives you future security (that people on minimum wage don't have) and a feeling (satisfaction) that you are getting somewhere in the economy. You just aren't tied to how well the company succeeds the way people that earn a share of the profit in a co-op do.

Right. And I don't care.

Your privilege is showing. Again, people working minimum wage who don't have those privileges.

So sayeth the willing subservient serf to the smiling king.

I know you're full of shit when you have to resort to personal insults.[/qs]

So not so much a serf/peasant/laborer, but still a vassal in the feudal hierarchy, happy to be given a position above the lowly worker struggling to live on minimum wage.

Guess you're not a big fan of democracy ...

In business? Yeah, not so much. But it really depends.

On what? Your place in the feudal hierarchy of the business?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 11:13 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5234
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 127 of 132 (825009)
12-06-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by RAZD
12-06-2017 11:59 AM


Re: What if the owners or shareholders are the workers?
RAZD writes:

Try me.

Posts crossed, there's a answer in your other thread on this.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 11:59 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 128 of 132 (825013)
12-06-2017 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 10:13 PM


Opportunity vs Privilege
NCE writes:

And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.

I'm going to assume that you don't believe anybody is for such a thing given your comments. So why'd you bring that up?

Because I do believe that some people are for such a thing, as I've said:

quote:
It seems to me that the leftists want to force equality of outcome.

I'm not exactly sure how they want to go about this, because I haven't seen anything explicit, but what I've seen implies what I've said.

Curiously, what I am for is equality of opportunity. Opportunity to education, opportunity for work, that isn't lumbered by institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers.

Not just because it is more equitable for people but because there is no guarantee that the white male necessarily represents the best the workforce etc has to offer. Case in point, the epitome of white male privilege, President Pedophile.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-04-2017 10:13 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-06-2017 8:49 PM RAZD has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 129 of 132 (825052)
12-06-2017 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by RAZD
12-06-2017 2:21 PM


Re: Opportunity vs Privilege
Curiously, what I am for is equality of opportunity. Opportunity to education, opportunity for work, that isn't lumbered by institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers.

To be clear: Are you saying that both opportunity to education and opportunity for work are being lumbered by both institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers? (sorry, there's some punctuation/grammar error there or something)

If so, then okay: what is your solution?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 2:21 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2017 1:35 AM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply
 Message 131 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2017 9:05 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10116
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 130 of 132 (825061)
12-07-2017 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by New Cat's Eye
12-06-2017 8:49 PM


Re: Opportunity vs Privilege
NCE writes:

Are you saying that both opportunity to education and opportunity for work are being lumbered by both institutionalized racism/biases...

If so, then okay: what is your solution?

If so, then there is no acceptable solution. By and large, nobody will accept the least bit of inconvenience to right such a wrong, regardless of how egregious. It is perfectly okay, for example, to let people into Harvard in part because somebody's dad and/or grandaddy is an alumnus, or maybe even a donor. But it is not okay to let someone into Harvard, in part because nobody in their family ever went there. Hundreds of years of your family getting the short end because of their race? Too bad. No system of compensation or getting ahead will ever be acceptable. In fact, let's just pile more shit on.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-06-2017 8:49 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 131 of 132 (825163)
12-09-2017 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by New Cat's Eye
12-06-2017 8:49 PM


Re: Opportunity vs Privilege
To be clear: Are you saying that both opportunity to education and opportunity for work are being lumbered by both institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers? (sorry, there's some punctuation/grammar error there or something)

Yes.

If so, then okay: what is your solution?

Tuition free state education. First community college or trade school, followed by higher education for those that want to pursue it. The community college path would mean not needing freshman year at state university. The community colleges would also provide the education needed for technician type occupations. The trade schools would mean a supply of plumbers, electricians, mechanics, etc. and a career path to solid middle class occupations.

Privilege is a bit harder to deal with. It's more of an awareness issue. For instance I went to Duke, and freshman engineering had 3 blacks and two women in the program. I find it extremely difficult to believe that this was due to natural ability. Better education and job opportunities should tend to counter this over time.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-06-2017 8:49 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-10-2017 11:03 AM RAZD has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11840
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 132 of 132 (825236)
12-10-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by RAZD
12-09-2017 9:05 AM


Re: Opportunity vs Privilege
Tuition free state education. First community college or trade school, followed by higher education for those that want to pursue it. The community college path would mean not needing freshman year at state university. The community colleges would also provide the education needed for technician type occupations. The trade schools would mean a supply of plumbers, electricians, mechanics, etc. and a career path to solid middle class occupations.

I like the idea of a post-highschool but pre-college institution of learning where students can test the waters of various industries.

It seems silly to me for a freshman to spend so many thousands of dollars to go to a college, not knowing what they want to do, and basically going on a test run to see how things go.

That's a risky and expensive gamble. Many people find out it's not for them. You don't have to dive right into the deep end to figure that out.

Also, many of the people that it is actually for end up spending years exploring the options to figure out what they want to end up studying. There's no reason to do that at the top dollar university (other than they would appreciate getting that money).

In principle it sounds like a good idea, but I'm afraid it might be too difficult to get all the different institutions to cooperate. In my experience, the universities would prefer students come take the classes at their schools over accepting transfers of credits from others. I don't see the universities being on board with losing a lot of business to free state schools.

On the other hand, with all the online schooling that happening, maybe the whole university model will become outdated and so they'll end up losing the business anyways. Then it doesn't matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2017 9:05 AM RAZD has not yet responded

  
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