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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
People read things wrong all the time, that should be no mystery. But when the entire history of the Church says something different about what it says than a modern unbeliever is saying, YOU are the one who read it wrong.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
Going back to the original point it is clear that they were expected to give everything to the nascent Church. Their failure to do so is even attributed to Satan’s influence.
I’ll also note that Peter is clearly setting himself up as God’s representative - to the point where lying to him (at least when he is acting as head of the Church) is lying to God.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: People read things wrong all the time, Says who? That there are hundreds of different 'interpretations' is not in doubt.
that should be no mystery. That *is* the mystery. Simple message from god himself - how can it be misinterpreted?
But when the entire history of the Church says something different about what it says than a modern unbeliever is saying, YOU are the one who read it wrong. I'm pretty straightforward on this stuff I just read the words. The history of Christianity is of people putting their own meaning into the words. That's why there a 30,000 different Christian belief systems all with their own interpretations. How come god is such a terrible communicator?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's possible to misread all kinds of things, and the Bible was written in a different time and cultural context so it is no mystery if it is easily misread. Nevertheless most of it is easy enough to read.; In any case wherever there is a dispute as to the meaning, the millions of believers will have it right, not the unbelievers.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm pretty straightforward on this stuff I just read the words. How nave of you. Everybody else would say the same, and all of you disagree.
The history of Christianity is of people putting their own meaning into the words. That's why there a 30,000 different Christian belief systems all with their own interpretations. The differences between genuine Christian denominations are minimal and only on minor secondary points where the Bible isn't quite as clear as on the major points. We all share the major points. But you are probably also mixing heretics and cults in with genuine Christians too, and they do distort the reading of the Bible.
ABE: ON the points we are discussing there are NOT a lot of different interpretations. It's pretty much you and ringo and other unbelievers against the entire history of the Church. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Jaywill 994
quote: The scripture says nothing of anybody ELSE keeping their property except the couple you just mentioned. The scripture says every other Christian believer, at the time, gave all of their possessions. Just prior to this incident, it says ALL gave everything. Unmistakable words in the text. Do you, Jaywill, disagree with the literal interpretation of the chapter 4 text which says that ALL GAVE EVERYTHING? Now, some logic. I don't know if you will agree with my logic, but doesn't is seem LOGICAL to assume that there would have been lots, of the thousands of believers, who would have kept their property if it was voluntary? Taxes aren't voluntary today, for a reason. The text says Ananias and Sapphire had the power to give the money but lied. People lie on their taxes, but it is the act of not paying them that is the issue. Ananias and Sapphire WERE IN THE DRIVER'S SEAT. Call it the "Captain Power dressing down" YOU HAVE THE POWER! (Don't torture the text!)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Faith writes: Nevertheless most of it is easy enough to read.; In any case wherever there is a dispute as to the meaning, the millions of believers will have it right, not the unbelievers. Which believers, the ones you agree with?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: The differences between genuine Christian denominations are minimal and only on minor secondary points where the Bible isn't quite as clear as on the major points. We all share the major points. But you are probably also mixing heretics and cults in with genuine Christians too, and they do distort the reading of the Bible. Well of course if you exclude every group that you don't think are Christian - which presumably includes the largest group of all, the Catholics - then you all agree. But that's hardly a sane argument. And the main point is unanswered, why would a message from God himself intended to save humanity be capable of such misunderstanding? In fact ANY misunderstanding. The answer is that this is all man made.
It's pretty much you and ringo and other unbelievers against the entire history of the Church. Which Church? Orthodox? Catholic? Yours?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The Church means all genuine believers no matter what the denomination. Historically there was essential agreement on most of the major texts by most theologians if you go back to the beginning. Heresies were identified and thrown out, etc. Which is not to say there weren't minor differences then too, and different ways of expressing principles and so on.
Pascal said the Bible contains enough light to inform and guide believers but enough obscurity to keep out the insincere unbelievers. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: The Church means all genuine believers Including Catholics and Orthodox?
Pascal said the Bible contains enough light to inform and guide believers but enough obscurity to keep out the insincere unbelievers. Pascal was admitting that this man-made god can't communicate worth a damn. And saying that believers can make up what they like about it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
All genuine believers includes those in the Roman Church and the Orthodox Church and any other church. There are some in all denominations.
And now you are making up what Pascal meant. Too bad he isn't still alive to set you straight.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: All genuine believers includes those in the Roman Church and the Orthodox Church and any other church. There are some in all denominations. So now I'm confused. What is a 'genuine' believer?
And now you are making up what Pascal meant. Too bad he isn't still alive to set you straight. I'm interpreting what Pascal said. Apparently that's ok for the bible so... But you're still not answering the core question, why is god's message so opaque? Why couldn't he communicate it such that there could be no need for this convoluted 'interpretation' that causes so much trouble?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
A genuine believer is someone who is born again and lives for Christ. There are some in every denomination, more in some denominations than other denominations, and although in many cases it is possible to recognize them, sometimes it isn't. It's a spiritual thing.
There is no doubt what Pascal meant and it is not what you interpreted it to mean. He thinks it very wise of God to inspire the Bible in such a way as to enlighten believers but mislead or at least remain opaque to unbelievers. I intended the quotation of Pascal to answer your question why the Bible seems opaque to you. It isn't opaque to a believer even if parts of it are hard to understand. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: A genuine believer is someone who is born again and lives for Christ. So that would be anybody that believes what you believe?
There is no doubt what Pascal meant and it is not what you interpreted it to mean. He thinks it very wise of God to inspire the Bible in such a way as to enlighten believers but mislead unbelievers. Yes that's what he means. But the conclusion from that is that god can only communicate with those that already believe in him. What use is that? His stated intention was to save the world, not just a lucky few. It's also total garbage.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
That is not what it says. It plainly includes holding back the money. No apologist can lie their way out of that. they were killed for lying about holding it back, not for holding it back.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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