Murder by prayer: When is enough, enough?

i am saying 'ye who are without sin cast the first stone.' you cannot judge, you cannot condemn, you cannot accuse for your own lives are not what they should be to do such actions.God has already stated what is right or wrong, so you do not need to. it has been done. you should because your actions affect the innocent as well. you really do not investigate things very well do you? cops lie all the time as do social workers, which is why i gave you the example of the wennatchee witchhunt. look it up and see how bad law enforcement gets. if they hold to secular scientific ways then i highly doubt they are. tat is not your call to make, as i am sure you would not want your children taken away from you because you did not do everything a creationist said to do.'do unto others...'you do not have the right to steal people's children.

theproblem here in this discussionis that all you secularists are equating sexual sins with faith healing and they are not the same. you are purposefully distorting the issue because you do not like Christ or christians and you need justification to interfere in their lives and families.the people who are wrong here are you all.

BUT they weren't, I was doing that by reviewing their policy and making the statement. The parents were doing what they felt they had to do, JUST like you all do.the policy is NOT encouraging criminal behavior, do not falsely label. it is telling people that they cannot go to a doctor when they think they should, it is interfering with parental rights and that is not correct.since the parents are a member of that church, and if you know anything about abusive relatinsips, then you would know that itis NOT easy for the parents to leave.stop being hypocritical in your applications. you do not know enough or refuse to make honest assessments of the situation. doesn't fit. being told by someone to do something is not the same as being a long term member and steeped in the teachings of a particular church.please try to find examples that actually fit the situation discussed. tyou example shows why christians do not like discussing with non-believers, you can't stay on point and give proper illustrations because you want to take shortcuts or do not want to have compassion for religious people.the parents could be construed as victims in this case because they were mislead by their leaders. just as you are mislead by democrats or republicans or evolutinary scientists. you will want God to have mercy and compassion on you for following sinful ways yet you refuse to grant those same judicial acts on those you despise.think about it.

The immediate problem, archy, is that you insist no one can interfere with parents and their children.You cannot even bring yourself to condemn incestuous parents.We're not equating faith healing and sexual predation--we're challenging your idea of absolute property rights to children. I don't for a minute think that you believe parents should get away with raping their children, but you are so loaded with hate for your opponents here that you can't admit it.Whatever. I'm done in this thread. Unlike you, that means I'm really done with it.See you elsewhere in the forum.

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Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

That's not true at all. I fully support the rights of parents to share their religious beliefs with their children. What I don't support is negligent homocide, which happens to be against the law. That is what is going on here. These parents are being negligent, and it ends up killing their children.I'm sorry, but simply stating "God told me to" does not excuse people from obeying the law. Neglecting your children's health is a crime. Period. It doesn't matter if God tells them to do so, or if the spirit in the jar of pickles tells them to. It is a crime. If someone states that God told them to kill someone would they be acquited of all charges right there on the spot? Of course not. So why is this any different? Can you remind us of that speech you made concerning not judging others? No one has the freedom to allow their children to die from treatable diseases and bar them from seeking medical treatment. We get it just fine. Some people are so deluded by their religious beliefs that they will endanger the lives of their own children because of them.Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

We old geezers remember well when Hodgkin's disease was a death sentence. Not even 50 years ago....And no, Archie, prayer didn't do anything for it then, either.

I'm sure god didn't say that parents could do whatever they like to thier children. And if he did, he's wrong. But not in a negative way. Look, I'll try to make it perfectly clear here. The only reason I see to take away a child from its parents is when the child is suffering or will suffer when we leave it with its parents. This means that I don;t care how parents raise their child, and what wacky ideas they put into their heads (well, this is not entirely true, I do care what they teach their children, it's just that I can't really do anything about it), but when it comes to harm, I'm sorry, but you just lost your child. A human life is too important to let some idiots squander it. I hope not. By the way, you don;t even know what actions I do or don;t take, therefore you have no way of knowing who gets effected by my actions or not. So, what you are saying is that all cases of child abuse are just made up, everyone involved in such a case is lying abot it. and no one has said that they are. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you. Since you don' t get to determine who is or is not a Christian (for instance, I could say you aren't one, and then what?), I'm gnna take their word for it. I don't, but the government sure has. And luckily they do.

What a load of absolute hogwash. Even if my state is fallen, I can recognize the lunatic fringe when I see it and I am obligated by reason to condemn it.John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Could you try to be a little more truthful on this subject?The objection to these parents is that they didn't get their child any medical care.They have a complete right to also perform whatever pointless little rituals take their fancy, be it faith-healing or the hiring of a witch-doctor.

some of you were but keep in mind, i am not going to give you an inch so you can take a mile. you also forget that acts like rape, murder, abuse are covered by BOTH spiritual and secular law, faith healing isn't and to call it murder is making people suffer because of someone's subjective opinion not fact or reality.don't have any hate, but i do not like your thinking that the secular world has the righ tot interfere in families especially when they do not know/grasp the issue nor are willing to accept mitigating factors involved.just becaus eyou do not believe in the spiritual world doesn't mean it does not exist and does not interact with terrestrial life.Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.

this is you subjective opinion and does not make fiath healing murder and as i have shown most states have exception clauses so it is NOT against the law.if i were you i would convince the oreon authorities to go after the church NOT the parents and then you would get the correct culprits and probably save a few lives. going after the parents ruins a family or three and that is not smart. actually it does IF it was really God telling them to do it. again ignorance of the spiritual realm gives you a very distorted view of the issue and you react wrongly. but they weren't neglecting their child's health. your decision to do only traditional style medicine is not superceding all parental rights and ability to exercise their right of free choice. that decision is for you an dyour family alone---PERIOD. now you are going to the apples when we are talking about oranges. first off God does not tell people to sin, which murder would be. Second, God isn't the only supernatural force in existence and they copy God or angels to get people to destroy others for their hatefilled mission. third, murder is against God's and secular law so having God told me to do it is not a defense because we can look up in the Bible and see that God does not do that.faith healing is not murder and your false labelling is distorting the issue. no you just proved ou do not get it because delusion has little to do with it. to explainit all will take awhile but i will try to be brief: 1. they could be decieved by evil; 2. the could be brainwashed, by evil; 3. they misunderstand scripture; 4. they are victims of those who want power an docntrol over them-- i.e. jim jones do you think that those 800 or so people could have just walked away? hardly.there is so much you do not understand or are willing to accept thus you try to falsely label something so you can do away with it. it isn't going away.some secularists are just as deluded as you claim religious people are.

and you are so holy you can draw that conclusion? the Bible lays out the guidelines for parents and this particular church (its leaders, actually) has gone too far. it has put in man made rules where they do not belong.i do not fault the parents at all but the church leaders of that particular congregation. but again you are gettinginto a very subjective area and no human is great enough to say their way is the only way. i know of a man who called it child abuse because one family did not have computers in their home.humans have differing ideas of what suffering and abuse are and who is going to draw the line? if you lethumans, then that line gets blurred eventually becauseof 'interpretation' or over-ruled when a new leader takes over. It is best to go to the Bible for God's way is not over-ruled nor blurred, it remains the same nop matter how badly some people misinterpret it, and we know the people would be wrong not God when they do go off the deep edge.science cannot make these determinations because they are just human and the previous reasons apply. yes it is always hard to differentiate between the singular usage of the word 'you' and its plural usage. please try to clarify before assuming. [qs]what you are saying is that all cases of child abuse are just made up, everyone involved in such a case is lying abot it. and no one has said that they are. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you[qs] that is NOT what i said nor is the example stating that. please do not distort what i have written. to answer your question, there are a lot and social workers lie, cops lie, and they misreport simply because they do not like someone. if they disagree with the Bible then they probably aren't. you can't have a relationship with God if you call Him a liar.

yet 'condemn' does not mean 'to judge' Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.

yes they did. they just didn't go to the doctor you wanted them to or approve of.

Uhm, the only way to get medical care is by going to a doctor.