Murder by prayer: When is enough, enough?

You ignore calls for evidenceBut since my wife is one of those 'incompetent" doctors, I would like to see your evidence for these wild-ass, ridiculous assertions.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

I'm an atheist. I've got plenty of morals, enough to know that insulting people on zero basis and denigrating something you have zero knowledge of is very much against them. Since when is allowing a person to die for lack of any medical consideration a compassionate act? And how the hell can it not be called endangerment?Children die in hospitals because of idiots like you: they defy any reasonable treatment in favour of their silly prayer. And when that fails completely, they try the hospital, only for the child to die soon after because it's far too late. And after all of that, you have the balls to criticise doctors for not saving somebody's life?Of course, it goes without saying that none of those medicines and treatments actually work, huh. It's just voodoo and magic and Satanist worshipping that lets people walk out better than they went in. Yes, because those evil atheist doctors are all secular and despise the notion of any form of religion, especially Christianity. And all they could ever want is to cause harm to all those patients.Silly us! If these people want to hurt us so badly, why do we keep going back to them? You don't think it might be because they actually saved our lives in the first place? Yeah, religion has always been a great supporter of human rights. Things like the Crusades, the Inquisition, shariah law: all excellent examples of religion getting right in behind and pushing those rights forward.
Doesn't your precious little book say something about twigs and logs in eyes? And you're an example of perfection yourself, I guess? Well, sorry for not reaching your standards, I'm afraid the rest of us will just need tp put up with reality them. Do you even hear yourself talk sometimes? Or does it just dribble out under no control?

Sure more people die in hospitals than those who use prayer, but that is relative do to the fact that many more people use hospitals than use your method. if 1000 people use prayer and 995 die as many more than 1000 people use hospitals and 2000 die, although more in hospitals the % is less.I have yet to meet anyone who was cured by prayer, but I have met many who were cured in hospitals, myself included.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

I think you made a typo there. Because if 1000 people use a hospital, it is rather difficult for 2000 to die there, unless all the staff members die as well, I guess.Also, this fucks up your percentages. In your prayer case, 99.5% of them died, in your hospital case 200% did.

guess where they came from....God and the bible. when is keeping their bodies alive via medical treatment and equipment when they will never function again considered a compassionate act? you really do not see the whole picture and blindly defend secular ideas just because of your bias and hatred for christ. wrong. they die in hospitals because of bad treatments, quacks, equipment failures etc., and because it is time. God doesn't promise long life to everyone. yes, please practice it before condemning christians who practice their faith. the crusades, the inquisition, sharia law has nothing to do with me or christianity. compare their words and actions to God's and Christ's instruction and you will see that those men were not following God...the restof your post isn't worth comment because your emotionalism influences your thinking the wrong way.

for the former, i have. for the latter not so much. you all do the same thing, you will blindly defend systems knowing they are bad, just because i or some other christian supports healing by prayer and exposes those inferior medical practices.wasn't it just recently that 2 people died waiting for medical care because they weren't worthy (skin color) to be seen when they should have? sorry but your defense of hospitals breaks down when the reality hits.as for the poster whose wife is a 'doctor' you attack christians, she is fair game.

Not in my case they didn't. In fact, I think the bible teaches some of the most terrible morals ever (I mean, stoning disobedient children? Really?) That's not what he said. He means like, when you've got a virus that is cureable, yet you don;t go to a doctor and die. Also, I agree with you on this point. I guess you were in favour of unhooking Terry Schivago as well then? Actually, out of all of the bible, Christ struck me as the most normal, most of his moral teachings were pretty good I thought. Although not everything he did was equally right, in my oppinion. And because of people who don't want their children to be treated for a perfectly curable disease. Of course they do, they were practiced and condoned and even commanded by Christians.No true Scotsman coming in 5, 4, 3.... 2, 1! Yep, there we have it.

Wait ... are you saying they died for want of medical attention?Rather than because not enough people prayed for them? Actually, your anecdote kinda supports the idea that people shouldn't be deprived of medical care. After all, if it isn't wrong to deprive people of medical care, what is the point of your story?Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

But letting children die of neglect does?---I note that you're still not answering my question about whether you think it's OK for parents to sexually abuse their children. It's a simple yes or no question. Why can't you answer it?Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

your opinion but you are not superior to God and your thinking is flawed. yet i provided two examples of people WHO WENT to the hospital and were ignored till they died. you have no argument. the problem with this argument is that secularists are all afraid to die so they try to fight it all they can. we will never know if those children would have lived or not if they were taken to a hospital, its an assumption you cannot make. who said they were christian? i don't.i donot follow nor accept your 'logical fallacies' because God's rules are higher and better than man's. spiritual things do not go according to the sinful world's ways, definitions, ideas or understanding. as soon as you realize this you may be able to learn something.

hospitals cannot heal people without God's permission. i can cite mickey mantle who bribed doctors to get him a liver but he died anyways. you people just do not get it. hospitals, doctors have little to do with healing but then you all always credited the wrong things.p.s. those people died because doctors, nurses and hospitals ignored them. don't try to twist my words to fit your warped ideas. going to a hospital one takes their chances and the medicines they give out are sometimes worse than the disease itself. so again you have no argument.Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.

Well, my morals tell me I should not enslave someone and when I am displeased with them as my slave beat them to within an inch of their lives. God/your bible says it is perfectly alright for me to do so.Who is right here, me or god/the bible? So? That doesn't mean you shouldn't go to a hospital when you have a perfectly cureable disease. Your chances of getting treated are better when going to a hospital than they are when not going to a hospital. Simple really. You're wrong. I'm not afraid to die. I will of course see a doctor when I get ill. But when my time comes, I will accept it without trying "to fight it all {I} can", in fact, I might help it along a bit. Yet, using your logic, Christians should never go to a doctor, for when they die, they'll go to heaven. Tell me, do you ever go to a doctor? Well, you can be damn sure that someone suffering from diabetes will most likely have survived if only they'd gotten that insulin shot. Yes, I know, they aren't really Scotsmen, are they? So, god doesn't use logic? Guess not. I'm sorry, I only use logic and erason, no woo for me, thank you very much. If you want to use woo, be free to, just don't be so arrogant as to proclaim it the only truth. I know you feel it is, but realize that these kind of truths are "personal", they cannot be extrapolated to everyone else, as your use of the "They aren't Christians" shows.

Don't fucking quotemine me, thank you very much.
No. They were initially taught to me by an atheist mother, and developed further by my own atheistic experience. Your silly book had nothing to do with it, except to drive me towards rationality and away from blind dogma.

Those people are kept alive at the parents' wishes, not the doctor's. You will often find that the doctor is the one advocating acknowledgement of the reality of the situation.

I defend secularism because only by keeping idiot religions like yours out of control can we hope to maintain basic freedoms like privacy and life, let alone advanced ones like speech and opinion.

This defense is certainly not blind. Rather, it is supported by the hundreds of cases wherein religious leadership resulted in utter suppression of anything remotely resembling nonconformity to a rigid and intolerant set of outmoded beliefs and rituals.

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wrong. they die in hospitals because of bad treatments, quacks, equipment failures etc., and because it is time. God doesn't promise long life to everyone

See, that's the thing. Quacks aren't allowed in hospitals, because quacks kill people. Not just accidentally or because they messed up, but by definition.

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Stupid bullshit like the "Vitamin C miracle" recently promoted in my country; dumb stuff like your "effective prayer treatment. If you were to try that on a hundred other patients like him from the start, you would end up with a huge number of deaths and a huge number of malpractise lawsuits. Whereas if you try these things called mainstream professional medicine, you manage to save upwards of 90% and you avoid any possibility of fingerpointing.

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Then again, what is this "God says it is your time" crap? Do we have free choice, or do we not? Because God telling us when our time happens is in direct contradiction of free will. So, which is it? You cannot say both, yet I have a feeling you will, because that is the nature of your particular flavour of contradictory belief system.

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yes, please practice it before condemning christians who practice their faith. the crusades, the inquisition, sharia law has nothing to do with me or christianity. compare their words and actions to God's and Christ's instruction and you will see that those men were not following God...

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The Crusades and the Inquisition. Having nothing to do with Christianity. Enough said.
Shariah law, no, nothing to do with Christianity. But you seem to forget that that kind of idiots also prays to their deity, and they're exactly the same god. It's a demonstration that ignorance and superstition are not confined to only your type of fundamentalism, but are universal traits amongst the moronic.

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the restof your post isn't worth comment because your emotionalism influences your thinking the wrong way

And none of your posts are worth replying to because your sheer stupidity and faith influences your thinking at all.

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But I do it anyway, because there aren't any intelligent fundies around to have a debate with at the moment. You've got a nerve to call me emotional, when the first response you throw at anyone is an accusation of dishonesty or Christ-hating.

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Now: evidence, or GTFO.

So medical care can make the difference between life and death?This is another yes-or-no question. And yet apparently you think that people can die for want of them.I think you should make up your mind.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

You attack what you don't know or understand, but still you provide NO evidence for you assertions. This sums up your petty, childish attempts at discussion on this board. ALl you can do is make personal attacks. I have not seen one iota of evidence out of you. Just hate and utter vileness.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts