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Author Topic:   Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 745 of 1000 (728396)
05-28-2014 7:06 AM


Many of the questions PaulK raises about Simonides are questions I had and expressed at my blog.
But I think it's very funny that you all seem to think you've defeated some position of mine when I essentially abandoned the argument on this thread some time ago. I might have come back to it eventually, but it was getting way too convoluted for my level of interest in what anybody at EvC has to say about such things.
I did put up a notice at my blog pointing to this discussion in case anyone is interested in pursuing it who stops by there, because who knows, it's even possible that somebody at EvC came up with an insightful perspective on the situation. I won't hold my breath, but it's possible. Perhaps I might even try to slog through it all some time.

Replies to this message:
 Message 746 by herebedragons, posted 05-28-2014 7:41 AM Faith has replied
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 Message 753 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 9:30 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 747 of 1000 (728398)
05-28-2014 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 746 by herebedragons
05-28-2014 7:41 AM


Oh it isn't genuine. We don't need Simonides to prove that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 746 by herebedragons, posted 05-28-2014 7:41 AM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 756 of 1000 (728415)
05-28-2014 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 754 by herebedragons
05-28-2014 10:10 AM


I was really skeptical of this whole "Bible Hoax of 1881" stuff and it seems pretty clear it is nothing more than a nonsense conspiracy theory.
Pick your source and you can promote any idea you want.
Pinto's stuff is very well documented, it's about a conspiracy all right, a real one, and he's got me reading up on history that most of us know nothing about.
But my blog was started long before I ever heard of Chris Pinto, and my arguments against the Codex Sinaiticus and the new Bibles are based on what John W Burgon, Dean of Chichester Cathedral and contemporary of the Bible Revision committee, wrote about the Bible Revision of 1881 in his book The Revision Revised as well as other sources.
The denizens of EvC are so consistently on the wrong side of every issue it's really astonishing.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 758 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 1:47 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 759 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2014 1:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 761 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 2:54 PM Faith has replied
 Message 769 by Modulous, posted 05-28-2014 6:27 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 770 by ramoss, posted 05-28-2014 8:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 760 of 1000 (728420)
05-28-2014 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 759 by PaulK
05-28-2014 1:53 PM


Two sides of every issue don't you know
As I said, I haven't read through this whole discussion, but one reason I haven't is that I had the impression early on that you were all just rehashing the usual claims against Simonides, really nothing new that hadn't been answered by Chris Pinto.
But also your claim that I was making a big deal out of Simonides simply isn't true. I acknowledged that I sounded definite about his innocence when I shouldn't have and when it didn't even reflect my own opinion about the case, but beyond that it was you all who pushed the issue, not I. Finally I just backed out.
My position on this, not only expressed at my blog but even on this thread, has been that Chris Pinto has done a good job of calling the usual view of Simonides as con man and forger into question, but that there are still unanswered questions and I don't know how it's going to turn out. I don't see that anyone here has done any more toward answering them either, again my impression is that you're all just rehashing the popular accounts.
I'm not interested in discussing Burgon. I've wrapped my blog around him and you can go read about him there. His case is based on textual criticism and is very detailed and complex.
And it's funny how you just think your own opinion rules and flatly declare it. Chiniquy is a trustworthy source, I haven't given him up on the basis of EvC's political correctness, odd you would think I would.
As I'm sure you could guess, I differ with you about which side is "the side of prejudice, lies and hate." EvC is the master of those "virtues."
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 759 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2014 1:53 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 762 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 2:56 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 763 of 1000 (728424)
05-28-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 761 by Dr Adequate
05-28-2014 2:54 PM


Not a forgery, and I never claimed that was Burgon's argument. His argument is that Sinaiticus was a corruption by early gnostics and that the church already knew about the class of manuscripts to which it belongs and rejected them as corrupt. Read Revision Revised.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 761 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 2:54 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 766 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 3:08 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 764 of 1000 (728425)
05-28-2014 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 762 by Dr Adequate
05-28-2014 2:56 PM


Re: Two sides of every issue don't you know
Assertion isn't an argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 762 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 2:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 768 of 1000 (728436)
05-28-2014 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 766 by Dr Adequate
05-28-2014 3:08 PM


Burgon
Burgon on gnostic corruptions of the text.
And here's another Burgon pointing out such corruptions
If you're going to object that this wasn't the only cause of the corruptions he discussed, that's right.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 3:08 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 771 by Modulous, posted 05-28-2014 9:01 PM Faith has replied
 Message 772 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 9:12 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 773 of 1000 (728444)
05-28-2014 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 771 by Modulous
05-28-2014 9:01 PM


Re: Burgon
He identified many causes of error, not just gnostic tampering.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 771 by Modulous, posted 05-28-2014 9:01 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 774 of 1000 (728445)
05-28-2014 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 772 by Dr Adequate
05-28-2014 9:12 PM


Re: Burgon
You'll get some new pages if you search on Valentinus or Basilides or Marcion, well known gnostics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 9:12 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 777 of 1000 (728449)
05-28-2014 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 776 by Dr Adequate
05-28-2014 9:43 PM


Re: Burgon
He's talking about the Alexandrian texts in general, which include Sinaiticus. There were only five of them that were made use of in the Revision.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 776 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 9:43 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 779 of 1000 (728473)
05-29-2014 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 778 by Dr Adequate
05-28-2014 10:22 PM


Re: Burgon
I thought that might be the case, but don't really care. Figured some of the references would be what I'm looking for. Burgon is known for identifying gnostics as behind corruptions in the Alexandrians, and there are probably other key words that would do as well or better at finding the right references. My eyes hurt from spending time on the internet these days. Growl and snarl over it as you please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 778 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-28-2014 10:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 782 of 1000 (728482)
05-29-2014 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 780 by Dr Adequate
05-29-2014 12:37 PM


Re: Burgon
Yeah yeah yeah, of course you could find a spin that would serve your purposes. What a smug sanctimonious lecture.
I've done a lot of research on these things. I get sloppy at EvC lately because the prevailing attitude is to treat anything I say as rubbish, no matter how simple and obvious the point, no matter how good a job I do at mustering my evidence and reasoning. I've done some really good stuff here that never ever gets acknowledged, and most of it gets twisted beyond recognition. You couldn't take the daily dose of accusation and namecalling I put up with here but you sure know how to dish it out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 780 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2014 12:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 783 of 1000 (728483)
05-29-2014 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 781 by NoNukes
05-29-2014 1:09 PM


Re: Burgon
See, there you go. Saying that I need to muster my evidence doesn't mean I haven't been convinced by evidence. The point is that I don't do a good job of keeping track of sources and it's hard to locate them when I need them. But trust you smear jockeys to put the worst construction on anything I say. I don't suppose you need to try very hard, it's kneejerk prejudice that drives you.
ABE: What's really really odd, even to me, is that I keep expecting to be treated with some benefit of the doubt, some grace, some basic humanity, and it never happens here yet I keep expecting it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 792 by Modulous, posted 05-29-2014 6:56 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 788 of 1000 (728491)
05-29-2014 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 786 by Dr Adequate
05-29-2014 2:01 PM


Re: Burgon
I've read all that before and I acknowledge that I did make too broad a statement in this case.
However, he did impute some of the error to intentional tampering, and Sinaiticus is riddled with an amazing amount of corrections whatever the cause, which ought by itself to show that it is corrupt and not worthy of being made part of the canon.
HOWEVER, as I said, Burgon is known for his arguments in favor of gnostic tampering. Perhaps the best example of this possibility is the exclusion of the Last Twelve Verses of Mark from those few early Alexandrian manuscripts. It's a very likely possibility when it comes to the absence of texts that the gnostics would have disliked for whatever reason. Burgon is always extremely careful, so he goes on at great length giving the benefit of the doubt to the opposing point of view, sometimes just barely hinting at his own. Anyway, this is what Burgon says about the causes of the absence of the last twelve verses of Mark in his treatise by that title:
But the most recent Editors of the text of the New Testament, declining to entertain so much as the possibility that certain copies of the second Gospel had experienced mutilation in very early times in respect of these Twelve concluding [pg 244] Verses, have chosen to occupy themselves rather with conjectures as to how it may have happened that S. Mark's Gospel was without a conclusion from the very first. Persuaded that no more probable account is to be given of the phenomenon than that the Evangelist himself put forth a Gospel which (for some unexplained reason) terminated abruptly at the words ἐφοβοῦντο γάρ (chap. xvi. 8),they have unhappily seen fit to illustrate the liveliness of this conviction of theirs, by presenting the world with his Gospel mutilated in this particular way. Practically, therefore, the question has been reduced to the following single issue:Whether of the two suppositions which follow is the more reasonable:
First,That the Gospel according to S. Mark, as it left the hands of its inspired Author, was in this imperfect or unfinished state; ending abruptly at (what we call now) the 8th verse of the last chapter:of which solemn circumstance, at the end of eighteen centuries, Cod. B and Cod. א are the alone surviving Manuscript witnesses?... or,
Secondly,That certain copies of S. Mark's Gospel having suffered mutilation in respect of their Twelve concluding Verses in the post-Apostolic age, Cod. B and Cod. א are the only examples of MSS. so mutilated which are known to exist at the present day?
I. Editors who adopt the former hypothesis, are observed (a) to sever the Verses in question from their context:462(b) to introduce after ver. 8, the subscription ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΡΚΟΝ:463(c) to shut up verses 9-20 within brackets.464 Regarding them as no integral part of the Gospel465as an authentic anonymous addition to what Mark himself wrote down,466a remarkable Fragment, placed as a completion of the Gospel in very early times;467they consider themselves at liberty to go on to suggest that the Evangelist may have been interrupted in his work: at any rate, [pg 245] that something may have occurred, (as the death of S. Peter,) to cause him to leave it unfinished.468 But the most probable supposition (we are assured) is, that the last leaf of the original Gospel was torn away.469
We listen with astonishment; contenting ourselves with modestly suggesting that surely it will be time to conjecture why S. Mark's Gospel was left by its Divinely inspired Author in an unfinished state, when the fact has been established that it probably was so left. In the meantime, we request to be furnished with some evidence of that fact.
But not a particle of Evidence is forthcoming. It is not even pretended that any such evidence exists. Instead, we are magisterially informed by the first Biblical Critic in Europe,(I desire to speak of him with gratitude and respect, but S. Mark's Gospel is a vast deal more precious to me than Dr. Tischendorf's reputation,)that a healthy piety reclaims against the endeavours of those who are for palming off as Mark's what the Evangelist is so plainly shewn [where?] to have known nothing at all about.470 In the meanwhile, it is assumed to be a more reasonable supposition,(α) That S. Mark published an imperfect Gospel; and that the Twelve Verses with which his Gospel concludes were the fabrication of a subsequent age; than,(β) That some ancient Scribe having with design or by accident left out these Twelve concluding Verses, copies of the second Gospel so mutilated become multiplied, and in the beginning of the ivth century existed in considerable numbers.
And yet it is notorious that very soon after the Apostolic age, liberties precisely of this kind were freely taken with the text of the New Testament. Origen (A.D. 185-254) complains of the licentious tampering with the Scriptures which prevailed in his day. Men add to them, (he says) or leave out,as seems good to themselves.471 Dionysius of Corinth, yet earlier, (A.D. 168-176) remarks that it was no wonder his own writings were added to and taken from, seeing that men presumed to deprave the Word of God [pg 246] in the same manner.472 Irenus, his contemporary, (living within seventy years of S. John's death,) complains of a corrupted Text.473 We are able to go back yet half a century, and the depravations of Holy Writ become avowed and flagrant.474 A competent authority has declared it no less true to fact than paradoxical in sound, that the worst corruptions to which the New Testament has been ever subjected originated within a hundred years after it was composed.475 Above all, it is demonstrable that Cod. B and Cod. א abound in unwarrantable omissions very like the present;476 omissions which only do not provoke the same amount of attention because they are of less moment. One such extraordinary depravation of the Text, in which they also stand alone among MSS. and to which their patrons are observed to appeal with triumphant complacency, has been already made the subject of distinct investigation. I am much mistaken if it has not been shewn in my VIIth chapter, that the omission of the words ἐν Ἐφέσῳ from Ephes. i. 1, is just as unauthorized,quite as serious a blemish,as the suppression of S. Mark xvi. 9-20.
Now, in the face of facts like these, and in the absence of any Evidence whatever to prove that S. Mark's Gospel was imperfect from the first,I submit that an hypothesis so violent and improbable, as well as so wholly uncalled for, is simply undeserving of serious attention. For,
(1st.) It is plain from internal considerations that the improbability of the hypothesis is excessive; the contents of these Verses being such as to preclude the supposition that they were the work of a post-Apostolic period. The very difficulties which they present afford the strongest presumption of their genuineness. No fabricator of a supplement to S. Mark's Gospel would have ventured on introducing so many minute seeming discrepancies: and certainly [pg 247] his contemporaries would not have accepted and transmitted such an addition, if he had. It has also been shewn at great length that the Internal Evidence for the genuineness of these Verses is overwhelmingly strong.477 But,
(2nd.) Even external Evidence is not wanting. It has been acutely pointed out long since, that the absence of a vast assemblage of various Readings in this place, is, in itself, a convincing argument that we have here to do with no spurious appendage to the Gospel.478 Were this a deservedly suspected passage, it must have shared the fate of all other deservedly (or undeservedly) suspected passages. It never could have come to pass that the various Readings which these Twelve Verses exhibit would be considerably fewer than those which attach to the last twelve verses of any of the other three Gospels.
(3rd.) And then surely, if the original Gospel of S. Mark had been such an incomplete work as is feigned, the fact would have been notorious from the first, and must needs have become the subject of general comment.479 It may be regarded as certain that so extraordinary a circumstance would have been largely remarked upon by the Ancients, and that evidence of the fact would have survived in a hundred quarters. It is, I repeat, simply incredible that Tradition would have proved so utterly neglectful of her office as to remain quite silent on such a subject, if the facts had been such as are imagined. Either Papias, or else John the Presbyter,Justin Martyr, or Hegesippus, or one of the Seniores apud Irenum,Clemens Alexandrinus, or Tertullian, or Hippolytus,if not Origen, yet at least Eusebius,if not [pg 248] Eusebius, yet certainly Jerome,some early Writer, I say, must certainly have recorded the tradition that S. Mark's Gospel, as it came from the hands of its inspired author, was an incomplete or unfinished work. The silence of the Ancients, joined to the inherent improbability of the conjecture,(that silence so profound, this improbability so gross!)is enough, I submit, in the entire absence of Evidence on the other side, to establish the very contradictory of the alternative which recent Critics are so strenuous in recommending to our acceptance.
(4th.) But on the contrary. We have indirect yet convincing testimony that the oldest copies of all did contain the Verses in question:480 while so far are any of the Writers just now enumerated from recording that these verses were absent from the early copies, that five out of those ten Fathers actually quote, or else refer to the verses in question in a way which shews that in their day they were the recognised termination of S. Mark's Gospel.481
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : disable smilies -- again

This message is a reply to:
 Message 786 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2014 2:01 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 790 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-29-2014 3:47 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 789 of 1000 (728492)
05-29-2014 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 787 by Dr Adequate
05-29-2014 2:22 PM


Re: Burgon
Well, no-one's hustling you. How much time would you like to muster your sources for your claim that "All the accusations against him [Simonides] are lies. He was no forger...";
If I had put that statement in context the more accurate statement would have been that "Chris Pinto has mustered evidence that most of the accusations against him are lies and that he was no forger..."
or for your claim that the Codex Sinaiticus is "not genuine";
So I could have been more precise here too and said "I am convinced particularly by the arguments of Dean J W Burgon, and also Chris Pinto, as well as many KJV-only sources, that Sinaiticus is not genuine but totally corrupt."
or for your claim that "His [Burgon's] argument is that Sinaiticus was a corruption by early gnostics";
And I should have more carefully hedged this statement this way:
"Burgon's argument is that Sinaiticus is a corruption by many means, which include tampering by early gnostics."
or that the R.C.C. once ruled the world "through the Holy Roman Empire";
This is a huge topic I'm still studying but it could be reworded something like this: "There is evidence in many old books that I have been encountering mostly through Chris Pinto's research, but also given by others who have researched these things, that the RCC considered itself to have received a horrific and unfair blow by the Reformation which essentially brought its happy medieval domination of the kings of Europe during the Holy Roman Empire to an end, for which they have been covertly seeking revenge ever since and the reinstatement of their power in the world. They keep as low a profile as possible in order to keep their intentions veiled. The Second Reich and then the Third Reich were failed efforts to revive their power, which were even named in terms of reviving the Holy Roman Empire, using the German word Reich of course, and the Gunpowder Plot against King James IV and I can be pointed to as one instance of their attempt to bring down the Protestant nation of England, but there's a lot more, and I hope to get my act together to collect the many many evidences of this intention and its continuing into the present."
or that Luther claimed to have read the Talmud himself (that one might conceivably be true, but when challenged you produced not a shred of evidence);
Yes, it's hard to find the evidence as I said. I am now trying to take better notes on what I run across about these things.
Luther tried to befriend the Jews but was horrified when he discovered their blasphemies against Jesus Christ in the Talmud. I find that this makes solid intuitive sense for starters but you want harder evidence. That evidence may be hard or easy to come by but I did not make this up and hope to get it organized soon, as I said.
or that the Cathars were "true Christians"?
But I did not say that and didn't even equate the Albigensians with the Cathars. However, to state it more precisely it would go more like this: "The Reformers treated the Waldensians and Albigensians as genuine Christians who had been persecuted by the RCC" In this case perhaps you are right that the Albigensians were heretics, in which case the Reformers would have recognized that and I misread them. This is going to take more research than I can do at the moment.
Edited by Faith, : quote mark

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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