Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8803 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-20-2017 10:23 AM
357 online now:
Coragyps, Diomedes, DrJones*, dwise1, halibut, jar, Percy (Admin), RAZD, Tangle (9 members, 348 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Upcoming Birthdays: DC85
Post Volume:
Total: 822,689 Year: 27,295/21,208 Month: 1,208/1,714 Week: 51/365 Day: 7/44 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
26272829
30
31Next
Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5155
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 436 of 454 (821934)
10-15-2017 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by Phat
10-15-2017 2:24 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

Everyone has beliefs.

Do they? Speaking for myself I have hopes rather than beliefs. But we were talking about god and Christianity, so no, not everyone.

You dont know the final destiny of humanity, for example.

But why does that matter? Is it important to know that? It doesn't matter a jot to me that I don't know the final destiny of humanity.

Dont you believe that we will survive or find a way to do so or are you simply relying on facts and evidence....because if you are, there is no answer...only probabilities.

But why worry about such stuff? It's just a mental torment. You have absolutely no control over it and you're only here for a while, you personally have so many real things to get control over - forget all this for ever stuff and worrying about the future of all mankind. All we can do is the best for ourselves, family and friends and then if we're lucky something for a wider audience. Fix your own roof first and stop agonising over the impossible.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 2:24 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 10-17-2017 10:55 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 437 of 454 (821936)
10-15-2017 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by Phat
10-15-2017 2:24 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

Dont you believe that we will survive or find a way to do so....


I believe mankind will become extinct - but not in my lifetime.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 2:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19217
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 438 of 454 (821938)
10-15-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by fjp8000
06-05-2008 3:14 PM


Mental conditioning aka Stolkholm syndrome
If one believes in a God, then why did God send "his son" ...

Logic error. Does not follow from premise. Many religions have no such cop-out.

If god is an omnipotent, etc etc etc,know it all, then s/he is responsible for creating "sin" in the first place, and the only reason to have a convoluted mechanism to "earn freedom" from this imposed sin is to impose a Stockholm syndrome behavior on the believers. Control.

One has only to look at the denial of reality that is necessary to believe ... sound more like devil worship to me.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by fjp8000, posted 06-05-2008 3:14 PM fjp8000 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 442 by Phat, posted 10-17-2017 10:53 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29609
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 439 of 454 (821939)
10-15-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 432 by Phat
10-15-2017 1:37 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Since it doesn't seem to have any meaning other than what the individual wants it to mean I would say it is of no importance but if YOU decide that it means something that helps YOU then it is supremely important.

It's what you do that counts not what you say.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 432 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 1:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by Pressie, posted 10-17-2017 7:54 AM jar has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1826
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 440 of 454 (821992)
10-17-2017 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 439 by jar
10-15-2017 3:29 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
I'm of a different opinion. What counts as being advantageous to a society is what is really important. That includes the opinions of the members of the society.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by jar, posted 10-15-2017 3:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by jar, posted 10-17-2017 8:34 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29609
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 441 of 454 (821993)
10-17-2017 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by Pressie
10-17-2017 7:54 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Pressie writes:

I'm of a different opinion. What counts as being advantageous to a society is what is really important. That includes the opinions of the members of the society.

But opinions are not really important, actions are. I society may well think women (or any other demographic) worthless but if the do not treat women as worthless than the opinion had no effect on the society.

It's what a society does that is important, not what it opines.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by Pressie, posted 10-17-2017 7:54 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10041
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 442 of 454 (822002)
10-17-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 438 by RAZD
10-15-2017 3:21 PM


Re: Mental conditioning aka Stolkholm syndrome
I suppose one could argue that monotheism that requires a choice is really dualism. I dont understand the distinction between being a Deist and a pantheist, however. Do you have any insights?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 438 by RAZD, posted 10-15-2017 3:21 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10041
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 443 of 454 (822003)
10-17-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 436 by Tangle
10-15-2017 2:35 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
But why worry about such stuff? It's just a mental torment. You have absolutely no control over it and you're only here for a while, you personally have so many real things to get control over - forget all this forever stuff and worrying about the future of all mankind. All we can do is the best for ourselves, family and friends and then if we're lucky something for a wider audience. Fix your own roof first and stop agonizing over the impossible.
Lucky? Seriously? There is no such thing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 2:35 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 10-17-2017 1:33 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5155
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 444 of 454 (822013)
10-17-2017 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Phat
10-17-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

Lucky? Seriously? There is no such thing.


Of all the things you could have picked out of my post, you picked this one, why?

Of course there's such a thing called luck. It's pure luck you are alive at all.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 10-17-2017 10:55 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Phat, posted 10-18-2017 12:27 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10041
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 445 of 454 (822064)
10-18-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by Tangle
10-17-2017 1:33 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
I'm talking probability. And there is a difference between measurable probability which has real criteria and a fanciful hypothetical probability of which there is no way to measure and thus quantify. The latter is incorrectly called luck or chance and there is no such a thing, in the absence of solid and verifiable numbers behind it.

Let's take the Yellowstone volcano. There is measurable probability connected with forecasting a future eruption.
We have a range (600,000 to 700,000 years. )

Contrast that with the probability of some event for which we have no solid data. My argument is that in the absence of data, there is no probability.

And without probability, there is no such thing as luck or chance.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Tangle, posted 10-17-2017 1:33 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 446 by Tangle, posted 10-18-2017 1:17 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 447 by ringo, posted 10-18-2017 3:34 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5155
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 446 of 454 (822067)
10-18-2017 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Phat
10-18-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

I'm talking probability.

Yes, but I can't make out why.

And there is a difference between measurable probability which has real criteria and a fanciful hypothetical probability of which there is no way to measure and thus quantify.

Sure, but so what?

Let's take the Yellowstone volcano. There is measurable probability connected with forecasting a future eruption.

There isn't. There is absolutely no way of knowing what the odds of Yellowstone blowing up at any particular time are.

We have a range (600,000 to 700,000 years. )

We don't. What we have is some knowledge of how many times and when Yellowstone has errupted. That can't tell us anything about the odds of it happening on Friday. I think you you're confusing real probability, like a dice where we know the chances of every event occurring because we can count them and unknowns like Yellowstone when someone baldy claims that because it blew up 1,000,000 years ago then it's due to blow up in the next ten years. We can't know that.

And without probability, there is no such thing as luck or chance.

If you're in Yellowstone when it blows up we'd quite rightly say it was bad luck wouldn't we? We had no way of calculating the probability of it errupting on our trip, so the fact that it did was just bad luck wasn't it?

But I don't get why you're so hung up on this probability thing at all, is it the gambling problem?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Phat, posted 10-18-2017 12:27 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 447 of 454 (822071)
10-18-2017 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Phat
10-18-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

And there is a difference between measurable probability which has real criteria and a fanciful hypothetical probability of which there is no way to measure and thus quantify. The latter is incorrectly called luck or chance and there is no such a thing, in the absence of solid and verifiable numbers behind it.


The outcome has nothing to do with whether or not we can quantify the probability. Getting a particular outcome is pure luck whether you can predict it or not.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Phat, posted 10-18-2017 12:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Phat, posted 10-19-2017 2:25 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10041
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 448 of 454 (822089)
10-19-2017 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by ringo
10-18-2017 3:34 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Getting a particular outcome is pure luck whether you can predict it or not.
If by luck or chance you mean random, consider that chance in and of itself has no power in and of itself to cause any sort of an outcome. Thus to say that something happens by chance is really saying nothing. Chance has no power.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by ringo, posted 10-18-2017 3:34 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 449 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2017 3:15 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 451 by jar, posted 10-19-2017 6:30 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 452 by ringo, posted 10-19-2017 11:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5155
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 449 of 454 (822090)
10-19-2017 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by Phat
10-19-2017 2:25 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

If by luck or chance you mean random


It's a bounded randomness. It's random if you get a 6 when rolling a dice once but we know that the chance of you doing so was 1 in 6. But we also know that you can never roll a 7. We also know that the chance of rolling 2 sixes in a row are less than rolling just one, so if you set out to roll two sixes and achieve it, we call that luck. And because we know the bounds of what was possible we can say exactly how lucky you were.

chance in and of itself has no power in and of itself to cause any sort of an outcome.

I think you're just messing with words here. Chance or probability has predictive power but it doesn't do anything to cause the outcome. A individual outcome of rolling a dice is random (this isn't quite true - if we understood all the forces acting on the die we could theoretically know the outcome, but it's good enough for us.) but knowing that the chance of it coming up 6 in 1 in 6 can't affect the outcome of a single roll.

Thus to say that something happens by chance is really saying nothing.

Well that's just wrong. If something is happening by chance, we know that it's not happening in a predictable pattern. That's very, very useful, it seperates noise from communication for example. If you want to find evidence of alien civilisations, look for non-random signals.

Chance has no power.

Tell that to the casinos. Knowing what the probabilities are for a roulette wheel ensures that the house has the power to always win in the end. But chance itself is just what we call what we're observing - it's not a thing in itself.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Phat, posted 10-19-2017 2:25 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2017 5:14 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1826
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 450 of 454 (822091)
10-19-2017 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by Tangle
10-19-2017 3:15 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Tangle writes:

Tell that to the casinos. Knowing what the probabilities are for a roulette wheel ensures that the house has the power to always win in the end.

And tell that to the people playing our national lottery. They increased the numbers you can choose to play from 49 to 52 (unannounced, of course). And the winner is... wait for it... wait for it...the CEO of the company contracted by the Government to run the Lotto...That guy gets millions. As someone said: Gambling was invented by a guy who knew basic maths conning persons who can't do any form of maths.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by Tangle, posted 10-19-2017 3:15 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
26272829
30
31Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017