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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
jar
Member
Posts: 29604
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 421 of 454 (729698)
06-17-2014 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Phat
06-16-2014 5:30 PM


Speaking in Jaberwocky
You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart....which you somehow consider silly and/or fantasy.

And yet again I will ask you, "What the hell does that even mean?"

Unless you can explain what that means how could I take that concept seriously?

By holding on to your own veto power in regards to what you can factually prove...you may well have kept yourself out of communion.

Again, "What the hell does that even mean?"

Do you mean that when something is refuted by facts I should ignore reality and embrace fantasy?

I submit that you cannot frame the issue with human logic, reason, and reality.

What issue? Why can't reason, logic or reality be used for that issue?

AbE:

Remember this started with this exchange.

jar writes:

Phat writes:

Humanity will NEVER become godlike and understand this universe...we still kill each other and are greedy manipulative bastards.

But at least according to the Bible God killed others and was a manipulative bastard. In addition it certainly seems we are way ahead of God, at least the God in the Bible in understanding this universe.

Based on your criteria and what the Bible says humans are at least god2.0.

Edited by jar, : see AbE

Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Edited by jar, : stil appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 5:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Phat, posted 06-17-2014 11:57 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 422 of 454 (729701)
06-17-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 421 by jar
06-17-2014 9:09 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart....which you somehow consider silly and/or fantasy.


jar writes:

"What the hell does that even mean?"

It means (1) That God is alive..today..now...through Jesus...who is alive today.

It means embracing the idea and possibility of communion with God and believing that He desires communion. This does not abdicate you of personal responsibility to try and do your best. It does not make God responsible for your success and/or failure. It simply means that you agree that being of one mind(versus double minded) and being of one heart (with the Creator of all seen and unseen) is a beginning...

jar writes:

Do you mean that when something is refuted by facts I should ignore reality and embrace fantasy?

Not at all. Humans should be able to differentiate reality from fantasy. Often, however...in demanding evidence for supernatural(or unexplained) events, we can shut ourselves off from being healed...or of learning the "deeper mysteries of God". Right when we could learn something...of actually experiencing communion--edification---enlightenment...we instead resort to "Observer status" and critically examine God as if He were but a character in a book.

jar writes:

Why can't reason, logic or reality be used for that issue?

I agree that we should never simply "check our brains at the door". I mean that we should never abandon faith while waiting for evidence. You seem to think God is like a parent who has kicked their offspring out of the nest and refuses to help them at all. Such a God is unapproachable and distant...making me feel like pond scum rather than a human.
jar writes:

But at least according to the Bible God killed others and was a manipulative bastard.

What possible good does that statement do for peoples faith? If we humans are charged to try and do our best, what insight can possibly be had through viewing God as a flawed character in a book rather than the One whom we trust and whom we commune with and whom gives us wisdom so that we actually can do our best on a daily basis?

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 421 by jar, posted 06-17-2014 9:09 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 424 by ringo, posted 06-17-2014 12:06 PM Phat has responded
 Message 425 by jar, posted 06-17-2014 1:27 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 423 of 454 (729702)
06-17-2014 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by Tangle
06-17-2014 1:34 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Phat writes:

You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart.....


Tangle writes:

Christians bleat on about this as though it actually meant something. I have no idea what it means and no-one has ever explained it without using delusional and poetic language.

I tried explaining it to jar in the previous post. Even though you have said that you were atheist, I respect the idea that you are open to communion. That is a big step for someone who doubts the idea of God and who doubts the possibility that a Creator gives a hoot about us. Much respect.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2014 1:34 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 426 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2014 2:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13866
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 424 of 454 (729703)
06-17-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Phat
06-17-2014 11:57 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

If we humans are charged to try and do our best, what insight can possibly be had through viewing God as a flawed character in a book rather than the One whom we trust and whom we commune with and whom gives us wisdom so that we actually can do our best on a daily basis?


Because, as I've said more than once, those who claim to commune with God, who claim they have God-given wisdom, don't seem to have much sense. The wisdom which results from communion seems more like a subtraction than an addition.

Edited by ringo, : Punctuation?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Phat, posted 06-17-2014 11:57 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 427 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:19 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29604
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 425 of 454 (729706)
06-17-2014 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 422 by Phat
06-17-2014 11:57 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
It means (1) That God is alive..today..now...through Jesus...who is alive today.

Again, "What the hell does that even mean?"

It means embracing the idea and possibility of communion with God and believing that He desires communion.

So how does one commune with God or know the entity you are communing with is God and not just a bad burrito?

It simply means that you agree that being of one mind(versus double minded) and being of one heart (with the Creator of all seen and unseen) is a beginning...

More Jabberwocky. What the hell does that mean?

Often, however...in demanding evidence for supernatural(or unexplained) events, we can shut ourselves off from being healed...or of learning the "deeper mysteries of God".

"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,
As he landed his crew with care;
Supporting each man on the top of the tide
By a finger entwined in his hair.

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:
That alone should encourage the crew.
Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:
What I tell you three times is true."

What the hell does "deeper mysteries of God" mean and what are they good for?

I agree that we should never simply "check our brains at the door". I mean that we should never abandon faith while waiting for evidence. You seem to think God is like a parent who has kicked their offspring out of the nest and refuses to help them at all. Such a God is unapproachable and distant...making me feel like pond scum rather than a human.

So it comes down to creating a God that makes YOU feel good?

What possible good does that statement do for peoples faith? If we humans are charged to try and do our best, what insight can possibly be had through viewing God as a flawed character in a book rather than the One whom we trust and whom we commune with and whom gives us wisdom so that we actually can do our best on a daily basis?

What possible good would it do to pretend that Gandalf was actually a horse and hobbits were nine feet tall and wore shoes?

It is simply what the Bible actually says; a concept that is called honesty IIRC.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 422 by Phat, posted 06-17-2014 11:57 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:27 PM jar has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5146
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 426 of 454 (729709)
06-17-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Phat
06-17-2014 12:02 PM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Phat writes:

Even though you have said that you were atheist, I respect the idea that you are open to communion. That is a big step for someone who doubts the idea of God and who doubts the possibility that a Creator gives a hoot about us. Much respect.

I wouldn't get too respectful; I'm just rational. If this god that talks to you started talking to me, after seeking psychiatric help and ruling out mental illness, I'd be forced to listen. I'm not an atheist for dogmatic reasons; I'm an atheist because there's no rational reason for belief.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Phat, posted 06-17-2014 12:02 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 427 of 454 (821918)
10-15-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 424 by ringo
06-17-2014 12:06 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
If we humans are charged to try and do our best, what insight can possibly be had through viewing God as a flawed character in a book rather than the One Whom we trust and commune with and Who gives us wisdom so that we actually can do our best on a daily basis?
ringo writes:

Because, as I've said more than once, those who claim to commune with God, who claim they have God-given wisdom, don't seem to have much sense. The wisdom which results from communion seems more like a subtraction than an addition.

So does that mean that you, unlike tangle, are not open to communion? IIRC you just wanted to be left alone. Kinda like riding out the hurricane and refusing the rescue helicopter. Granted you are having beef with the God I market, but assume for a moment that you are having beef with the God Who actually may exist...would you have beef with Him? Or is your beef with organized religion and shoddy marketing?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 424 by ringo, posted 06-17-2014 12:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 428 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 12:26 PM Phat has responded
 Message 434 by ringo, posted 10-15-2017 2:20 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5146
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 428 of 454 (821919)
10-15-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Phat
10-15-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

So does that mean that you, unlike tangle, are not open to communion?

Who says I not open to communion? Your god can get in touch anytime he likes; apparently he has my number but is ex-directory so I don't have his.

I've asked this question several time - how come god only chooses to speak to some people and not others?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:31 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 429 of 454 (821920)
10-15-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by jar
06-17-2014 1:27 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
When you used to go to church and everyone recited the Book Of Common Prayer, and the people spoke as one voice, did you ever believe that anyone besides the people in the room heard the prayer? Were you concerned with anyone else besides the people in the room? Perhaps your belief is nothing more than the charge and the honor system. Perhaps that's all that is needed for you to believe in.

Perhaps since asking Jesus into your heart is untestable or untested or an example of what you believe to be bad marketing, you simply ignore the idea.

I will concede that honesty is more valuable than fantasy.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by jar, posted 06-17-2014 1:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by jar, posted 10-15-2017 12:54 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 430 of 454 (821921)
10-15-2017 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 428 by Tangle
10-15-2017 12:26 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
tangle writes:

Who says I not open to communion?

Note that I said that ringo was not open to communion while you apparently were. Also note what I just said to jar. But now that you are here, I will ask you. Is it necessary to create God in order to believe in Him? Is is necessary to even believe at all? Can doing the best you can to help others be enough to pass any arbitrary test of what it means to be a Christian?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 428 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 12:26 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 1:54 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29604
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 431 of 454 (821923)
10-15-2017 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 429 by Phat
10-15-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

When you used to go to church and everyone recited the Book Of Common Prayer, and the people spoke as one voice, did you ever believe that anyone besides the people in the room heard the prayer?

No one recites the Book of Common Prayer. What is important is whether or not YOU hear what is being said.

The Book of Common Prayer is not just a simple piece, it is rather a whole collection of historical knowledge, prior art, exercises and guides. It is something to help YOU meditate or learn your duties, or place your belief systems in relation to reality.

Phat writes:

Perhaps since asking Jesus into your heart is untestable or untested or an example of what you believe to be bad marketing, you simply ignore the idea.

I simply have absolutely no idea what "asking Jesus into your heart" even means.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 429 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 432 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 1:37 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 432 of 454 (821926)
10-15-2017 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by jar
10-15-2017 12:54 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
I simply have absolutely no idea what "asking Jesus into your heart" even means.
The ongoing question currently is whether it is important or not.

Perhaps what it means to you is taking on the lessons that Jesus taught us and doing them yourself.

To others, it may mean a get-out-of-hell free card. A license to sin. A guarantee.

To others it may mean a regenerated mind versus a fallen mind.

I'mn stating to lean more towards the idea that it means taking on the character that Jesus taught.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by jar, posted 10-15-2017 12:54 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 439 by jar, posted 10-15-2017 3:29 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5146
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 433 of 454 (821928)
10-15-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Phat
10-15-2017 12:31 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

Is it necessary to create God in order to believe in Him?

Well it's rather difficult to believe in something that you can't even imagine or name isn't it? It has to exist as an idea for anyone to believe in anything.

Is is necessary to even believe at all?

What a bizarre question - of course it isn't, millions don't.

Can doing the best you can to help others be enough to pass any arbitrary test of what it means to be a Christian?

I haven't the first clue what that means, it's religious bubble-talk.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 2:24 PM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13866
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 434 of 454 (821931)
10-15-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Phat
10-15-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:

If we humans are charged to try and do our best, what insight can possibly be had through viewing God as a flawed character in a book rather than the One Whom we trust and commune with and Who gives us wisdom so that we actually can do our best on a daily basis?


It's because the God character is unreliable that we can only rely on ourselves.

Phat writes:

So does that mean that you, unlike tangle, are not open to communion?


What I'm saying is that in many people who claim to have "communion", it seems to be a negative effect. I'm not open to negative effects.

Phat writes:

IIRC you just wanted to be left alone. Kinda like riding out the hurricane and refusing the rescue helicopter.


But in your scenario, the helicopter crewman puts a gun to my head and says, "Come with us or else." Given that choice, I definitely would rather ride out the hurricane.

Phat writes:

... assume for a moment that you are having beef with the God Who actually may exist...would you have beef with Him?


If there is a God who actually exists, He doesn't have to be afraid to show Himself to me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:19 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 435 of 454 (821932)
10-15-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by Tangle
10-15-2017 1:54 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
What a bizarre question - of course it isn't, millions don't.
Everyone has beliefs. You dont know the final destiny of humanity, for example. Dont you believe that we will survive or find a way to do so or are you simply relying on facts and evidence....because if you are, there is no answer...only probabilities.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 433 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 1:54 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 436 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 2:35 PM Phat has responded
 Message 437 by ringo, posted 10-15-2017 2:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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