Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins

All people are mortal. So, I agree that the Bible was written by men for men. This topic is interesting! Purple Dawn, should our focus be on the meaning of the Bible as a book? Should it be on Jesus? Yet many scriptures challenge that assumption. Ifen states the issue a bit further: For this question, the ball is clearly in the topic authors court. Personally, I believe that Jesus was Gods "get out of jail free" card offered to all of humanity.The jail, of course, is spiritual. From a Dispensationalist perspective, the Bible is written in such a way that the book is not written to everyone. From the Fall to the Law, the book was written to pagans. From the Law until the middle of Acts, the book was written to Jews. From Mid Acts until the Rapture, the book is written to the non-Jewish believers which make up the Christian Church. After the Rapture, the book is once again addressing Jewish people. God never changes. He is always the same.
But this unchanging God has different ways of dealing with different men throughout the course of history. God deals with different men at different times in different ways! God did not deal with the Apostle Paul in the same way that He dealt with Abraham. God was merciful to both of these men and God saved both of these men and God will spend eternity with both of these men, but God did not deal with these two men in the same way. These two men lived at different times in history and they had different responsibilities and obligations before God. The same could be said about Noah and Solomon. God dealt differently with these two men. Noah's responsibility was to build an ark. Solomon lived hundreds of years later and his responsibility was to build a temple. God reveals His truth to men gradually and not all at once. God revealed certain things to Adam, but there were many things that God did not reveal to him. Later God revealed even more things to Abraham. Later in history God revealed even more things to Moses and to David. When Jesus walked this earth He revealed certain things to His disciples which had never been revealed to Old Testament believers. Jesus is addressing Jewish disciples. He is telling them that the Holy Spirit will be the teacher once Jesus is gone. Lets get back to what ramoss said: This differs for each individual at their point in time. If we could ask various personalities within the Bible about the Bible, what might they say? Adam: "I had no Bible at all, but I walked with God in the cool of the garden."
Abraham:"I had no Bible at all, but at different times God would appear to me and speak to me."
Moses: "My Bible contained 5 books—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy"
King David:"My Bible contained the same 5 books that Moses had as well as Joshua and Judges and many of the Psalms which I wrote, etc."
Ezra: "My Bible contained most of the Old Testament books but not all of them"(Of course, Ezra would not know that more books were to come!)
John the Baptist: "My Bible contained all of the Old Testament books but none of the New Testament books" (John was Jewish, and the entire O.T. was written to him! He was also a prophet.
Apostle Paul: "My Bible contained the Old Testament books and most of the New Testament books but not all of them" (He wrote the N.T. part)
John, the Disciple whom Jesus loved:"My Bible contained all of the Old Testament books and all of the New Testament books. Shortly before I died God used me to write the last New Testament book."
Different rules for different people at different points in time! Does this make sense? Consider the rules for three kids born to the same Dad with different ages. Some could stay out late, others could not. Some could drive, others could not. Now look at three Biblical figures:Noah (after the flood)
He had the privilege and responsibility of believing what God had said.
He had the privilege of walking with God (Gen. 6:9).
He had the responsibility of obeying God (compare Heb. 11:7).
The murderer should be put to death (Genesis 9:6).
Animals should be sacrificed to God (Genesis 8:20).
God did not tell him to keep the Sabbath or to circumcise male children or to baptize believers in water.
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David (under the law of Moses)
He had the privilege and responsibility of believing what God had said (and he knew more about what God said than Noah did).
He had the privilege of walking with God.
He had the responsibility of obeying God (Deut. 8:1).
The murderer should be put to death (Exodus 21:12).
Animals should be sacrificed to God (Leviticus 1-5).
God told him to keep the Sabbath and to circumcise male children (Deut. 5:12-14 and Leviticus 12:3).
God did not tell him to baptize believers in water.
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Paul (a New Testament believer under grace)
He had the privilege and responsibility of believing what God had said (and he knew more about what God said than Noah or David).
He had the privilege of walking with God.
He had the responsibility of obeying God (1 John 2:3-5).
The murderer should be put to death (Romans 13:1-4).
Animal sacrifices are no longer necessary (Hebrews 10).
God did not tell him to keep the Sabbath or circumcise male children.
God did tell him to baptize believers in water (Matthew 28:19-20).
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Different rules at different points in time. True. He wanted relationship with His people. Not ritual. So, the question that we ask ourselves is this: Who was Isaiah talking to? Even Jesus said that He came only for the Jews. So, clearly, Jesus honored the requested prayers from a non Jew, even though He said So what about Paul? Writing more books after the Messiah came? So says Paul. Was Paul sincere? A true inspired man of faith? Or was he a mere scammer? Read the books and see what you think!

Say you are out mowing the lawn. You look up and see the Sun. 92 million miles away. The light is shining all on you, however, and the heat is 87 degrees! 3 different things. The Sun. The light. and the heat. Yet the light comes from the Sun, as does the heat. 3 different things yet all from one source. Just like the Nicene Creed explains:

Thomas Paine has been challenged by this author:Also, a more detailed rebuttal is to be found here:http://www.tektonics.org/JPH_CN2.html

Great thoughts, purpledawn! You brought to mind a principle that we were taught in church a few years back that made sense to me then, and still does. I can't find the exact scriptures that stated it, but the essence of what was taught was that God prefers obedience over sacrifice. Take the example of God loving a cheerful giver. To give cheerfully involves obedience to an inner unction and a heartfelt desire. To sacrifice means giving up something that a person claims as their own. If I spend time with you because I think that I have to, it is a sacrifice and as God looks at my heart, it is in vain. If I willfully spend time with you because an inner unction compels me to do so, it is obedience and it is rewarded!

The Trinity does NOT mean tritheism. Tritheism declares that there are three beings who together are God. Another heresy that has been denounced is known as Modalism.
http://www.carm.org/heresy/tritheism.htm
http://www.carm.org/heresy/modalism.htm
Check out this chart, which explains the scrips behind the logic:
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htmThis message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-27-2004 03:22 AM

Is Jesus God? Mainstream Orthodoxy says yes. Roman Catholicism says yes. Mainline Protestantism says yes. Jehovahs Witness says No. I personally say that Jesus is God, the Son. The Trinity is a pretzel if it is logically approached, yet it is not a heresy. If spirituality is a journey, and the destination is a place and a relationship found, God is the place, Jesus is the road to this place, and the Holy Spirit is the map and companion needed to fullfill the journey. Ramoss, in a strict sense, Jesus is not God the Father. Jesus is the only way TO the Father. The Holy Spirit is the only way to understand this enlightenment. Thus, when arguments ensue among various belief systems, one can discern that either there is a consensus among diverse opinions, a vibe that flows from One Spirit,(The Holy One) or there is disagreement and intellectual/emotional posturing to cling to manmade positions. (The other spirits are at work, here) If I talk with a strict Jehovahs Witness, for example, we can agree on many things yet a Witness is taught that the doctorines of the Watchtower society that they have been taught supercede all accumulated Christian revelations throughout History.
The witness justifies this on the grounds that it is biblical. The simplicity of Father and Son being One is never seen. Here is another corny example, which I lay out as food for thought: If I stand next to a body of water known as Lake Michegan, and I fill a jar with lake water, you may rightly say that the jar is not the lake. The jar is full of lake water, but the jar is a jar and the lake is a lake. Lets look at the question another way. Standing back and observing the Lake and the Jar next to it, (At the right Hand) we can ask this question: Is the Water the Water?
I may say that the lake is one concept..(One Monotheistic reality) and that the jar is also a vessel containing the same water.
In the case of God and Jesus, God, through the virgin birth, allowed for a vessel to contain His Spirit, which is His essence. A Witness would assert that Jesus was thus created. A Christian would assert that the Godhead is all One Spiritual reality foreknown from the beginning. So.....Ramoss, Is Jesus God? I ask myself if I can really talk with God and know Him without Jesus. The answer for me is No.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-27-2004 10:35 AM

OK,I'm going. Here is one: John 20:28(Thomas called Jesus God.}
"And Thomas answered, and said unto him, My Lord and my God." Luke 8:39-After Jesus healed a demon possessed man, Jesus said:
"Return to thine house, and show what great things God hath done unto thee. And he went on his way and published throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done unto him." This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-29-2004 06:15 PM

Im not gonna judge you by typical Christian criteria, but let me ask you something, Buzz. How much of your theological influence has been because of association with Jehovahs Witnesses? Do you consider yourself a Witness? (In the sense of belonging to a Kingdom Hall body?) The reason that I ask is the type of responses that you give to theological questions are similar to those that I have heard from Jehovahs witnesses....

Sorry I prejudged you, Buzz. I will continue to discuss theology with you confidant, now, that you know more than I thought you did!

Just out of curiousity, what great source has enlightened you with the "correct" translation? Are you saying that the NKJV, NIV, and other translations are incorrect? What source or what Bible are you thus claiming to be correctly translated? I have seen numerous commentaries that affirm the accuracy of NIV etc....

Purpledawn, since you have bumped this thread back into life, where do we begin? Are you of the belief that Jesus Was NOT a Sacrifice for all mankind?