Who to believe , Ham or Ross?

I'm starting to think that you really don't get it:look at this quote:

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I guess it's too much to ask that anyone be literate enough around here to KNOW that it's been taken as true history by great Bible teachers all the way back

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You really don't see the problem with offering this as "evidence"?

The problem is that we are too literate to believe that the Bible has been taken as true history by great Bible researchers all the way back; although I'm no expert, I've read enough to know that your claim is untrue. Well, you might not need that much, but some evidence other than your bare assertion is required.

I don't know Crash. Should I distrust every word you might tell or write down about your own life and experience? This is basically what you are saying. When somebody tells you they are telling you the truth about something they have experienced and have reason to know about, it is not only rude, it is destructive of everything we all depend on, to barrage them with doubts about their veracity. It is in THIS sense that I mean the Bible presents itself as history. The greater part of it is presented as FACTUAL REPORTAGE.Everybody here pounces on words and nitpicks them to death, as if "presents itself" could possibly include OBVIOUS creative works such as an epic poem or Tolkien's fantasy. This is an abuse of the intellect frankly and I don't know how you all rationalize it to yourselves.Sorry, I realize I already answered you. Well, here's another answer anyway.

YES, ANOTHER DAMN TOPIC DRIFT ALERT!My impression is that this is a "Young Earth Creationism vs. Old Earth Creationism" type topic. Messages should have some direct connection to that (yet another appearance of my favorite word) theme.THEME, THEME, THEME!!!Adminnemooseus

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But Faith it's a sliding scale.If I say "my name is Charles" - is it really important to investigate that fact?What if I said that I run a four minute mile?what if I said that I could fly?The bible makes extraordinary claims - we can't even find proof for many of the "ordinary" things in there!

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I guess 3000 year track record of its having been taken as true history isn't evidence in these parts, huh?

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Does this mean that if I find a book with a track record of longer than 3,000 years of being taken as true history, you will consider it "evidence" of some reality?The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Sumerian civilization date from around 3100 BCE.

Bump my previous message.Going to close this one for a while.Will probably be out of contact with my computer for the next 10 hours or so.Adminnemooseus

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Adminnemooseus

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You guys are a riot. What a joke. By your standards nothing whatever is proof EXCEPT your own sometimes somewhat scientific guesses extrapolated from the present to the distant past which can't be tested, proved, replicated or falsified.

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Faith, you have made this claim numerous times, and it is false.I've begun a new thread discussing if the ToE is scientific or not.Please join me there and we can discuss why it is you think the above.

Okay, I was going to reply to Faith and Shraff but I feel like history now. How on earth has five pages been added in one day?!Getting back onto topic, I agree about those few you mentioned Shraff. Infact I don't mention these things much but I don't think creationism is science personally.It seems Faith, that science is against God according to you yet you are for what you might call creation science? This is where we differ I suppose, as creationists, and I suppose it justifies the opening post. We ourselves are different animals. I don't think science has anything much to do with Genesis or floods, or belief.As for the law, didn't the NT said that an angel gave it to Moses?I find the early law books a bit barbaric. No offense, but if God ordered me to rape women and kill babas, then I'd have to abandon God. Good job I know he wouldn't ever ask that, because I believe in Christ.And also, all that violence, and burning people for their transgressions, and warring, - for me this just proves how wrong they all were about what the Commandments where about, thus only Christ knew what they were about thus he fulfilled the law.I think those early biblical Jews(Deuteronomy) and their band of merry murderers transgressed the commandment to not kill many times.(PS. My bad, I meant to press "general reply")This message has been edited by Dilbert fine hog, 03-30-2005 07:55 AM

Of course. What has such a track record apart from the Bible? A civilization is not a book of history, need I point out. The Epic of Gilgamesh is a poem is it not? Does it purport to be true history or creative imagining of historical events? Has it been accepted as history for 3000 years? Or at all? It may certainly have some historical value, for all I know. Do you have a point?

No. Perhaps you are thinking of the book of Jude, where he says that Satan disputed with an angel about the body of Moses after Moses died.

Orson Welles did a neat radio broadcast in 1938 that was presented as fact, and accepted as such by those listening, creating widespread panic.It was about aliens colonizing Earth.

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"You can't expect him to be answering your prayers when he's not real, can you? That's like writing to the characters of a soap opera and expecting a reply, Mr. Silly Sausage!"
-Jane Christie

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The bible makes extraordinary claims - we can't even find proof for many of the "ordinary" things in there!

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Father, I thank you that you have revealed these things to children and not to the wise of this world.In other words, God presents you with a testimony of witnesses to His reality, including written testimony of many to the extraordinary events that show He is really God (and why wouldn't you expect the true God to be able to perform extraordinary things?) and He thwarts all human attempts to find Him by any other means than the means He has given -- written testimony by trustworthy witnesses of everything needed to believe in Him.You take it or leave it.

Yes, and if it had been verified beyond that first day and continued to be believed by millions for 3000 years we could classify it with the Bible for veracity.