Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)

Because Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murderBecause Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murderBecause Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murderBecause Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murderBecause Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murderBecause Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murderBecause Christ said to not even get angry with your brother, or you're in danger of the commandment to do no murderHELLO! Can you HEEEEEEAAAAAR MEEEEE?You missing out God's example on earth, of how to act, Jesus Christ.Men's actions in the OT don't bother me, as Abraham argued to spare any righteouss, therefore, the law os sin and death doesn't apply to believers in Christ. You need to read the NT.

Quote the OT all day if it makes you feel happy. Doesn't change what God says is good via the commandments and Jesus Christ.Who should God accept? Unbeliever 1 or 2?This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 10:17 AM

God isn't wrong. He sees what will happen - big deal.But my argument isn't that God's will would be proved wrong anyway, as I've said that it's not possible his will would change. You just don't get it. Read it again. He foresees every path of Shraff, but it isn't his will she burn, as that can be changed by Shraff's belief as of now. Prove him wrong about what? He said he desires that she believes.Please quote anything else you think he might have said. First prove he said something before saying he's proved wrong.

I don't deny it, I know what you mean, I had that same thought. However, that doesn't mean her choices aren't real. What matters is that only if he says it's his will previously does it mean that it is his will for her to burn. But he didn't, he says to believe, infact, he said what only the God of the universe could logically say if he is omni-everything. He said it's his will for us to believe, yet that choice is ours. Therefore, his will remains intact, and our decision cannot effect his omnipotency. Get it? I hope you know what I mean.There's a difference between God knowing she will end up in hell, and it being his will she ends up there. If it was his will, then she would have no choice in the matter. The choice is real, because right now, she can believe. Therefore God becomes a spectator, and his good will and intention remains the same. Ultimately, it's our own will that is the cause. We can decide what we want, all God does is give us the chance to.

I didn't mean to offend you, I just didn't think you were understanding what I meant. Why would God be wrong if it wasn't his will?He's wrong if it was his will, am I right? In that, if he stated that it was his will that she go to hell. But that's assuming his will is that she goes to hell. It's clear that it makes more sense to say that God doesn't make a will such as that if humans could change that will. So God couldn't have a will that dictates she goes to hell, as he would then allow people to be able to change his mind.If she finally goes to hell, then that would be her choice as she has the ability to choose.My argument in my opinion doesn't fail, in that I gave two options, either God isn't omnipotent, and as you say, fallible, OR it tisn't his will she goes to hell.We are discussin the God of the bible remember, therefore the character of God, must be taken on what that bible says. And that bible says that it's God's intention that the Gospel is preached, because Jesus Christ died that we will be saved.It is illogical to therefore take the option that God is fallible and creates people for hell, as it doesn't fit his actions in Christ.So God can know each and every decision, and the next and the next as Asgara mentioned. But if it was his will that he created people for hell, then he would have said that, then you could prove him fallible, but he said his will was that we choose to believe or not, therefore, he creates us to have that choice, so then it is put on us, and we are responsible.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 11:15 AM

ADDENDUM.Message #86 is checkmate pertaining to as to whether God creates us for hell. It's not possible because you cannot state NOW, who is intended for hell. If it is his will, then you can only prove it's his will by showing me the actual individuals who go to hell. A will must predate an outcome, so you have to provide the will now in order for your argument to be correct (otherwise you can't prove anything). So you must show that God intends specific beings in hell and their names, before the outcome.I hereby claim my argument as irrefutably unrefuted and have no more to say.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 11:21 AM

You misunderstand. People here have said God's intention is to create an unbeliever to go to hell. That's means his will and intentions must be that specific people go to hell.If those people are named right now for me, let's say "Joe bloggs" was the victim of God intending him to go to hell, then Joe Bloggs, as of tomorrow, could become a believer. Therefore, God would not intend people for hell, even if he foresaw them going there, as his intention and will would be wrong, and Jo Bloggs would go to heaven.You see, if it is God's will that Joe Bloggs go to hell, then Joe can change that, thus the choice is really Joe's. It doesn't matter what anyone says Mike. To prove God intends people to go to hell you MUST show that that is his will NOW and in order to show that a will precedes and outcome, and is truly his will. Otherwise, it isn't his will.Think about it. God might create someone, but if he created them to go to hell, then he would have decided that that person would go there long ago. SO in order to prove to me it is his will they perish you MUST tell me the specific name he decided long ago.As for dead people, you can say now that it was God's intention and will that they go to hell, but can you tell me that when they are alive? If Mary died an unbeliever, you'd have to prove it was his will before she died, as he would have decided her fait before He created her. It's no good saying it's was his will when she is dead, as that proves nothing.You must prove A)it was God's will before she died in order to then prove it by her dying an unbeliever B)If she dies, then anyone can say it was God's will, which proves nothing. We can still say he foresaw her death, but his will would have to be proven by way of him giving us her name and showing us it was his will beforehand. Him foreseeing something and willing it are two different things.Showing me her name on a list before her death would prove it was God's will. But if you name Shraff NOW, then she can change her mind tomorrow.Conclusion: Even though God foresees people going to hell, he doesn't create them to go there, nor is it his will, because people choosing to believe would negate that willThe missing term is choice. It's only possible that we create our own fait, as the choice we have is not negated. You can choose right now, to believe. The choice is real, you must show the choice isn't real. But we all know it is.Red - doesn't need proving.
Yellow - does need proving.If a man said to you, "that man just died and he left me some money", if there was no will beforehand, you couldn't prove it.PROVE IT.This message has been edited by J. Davis, 06-02-2005 12:26 PM