Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 87 (8946 total)
25 online now:
caffeine, candle2, jar, PaulK, Tangle, Thugpreacha (AdminPhat) (6 members, 19 visitors)
Newest Member: ski zawaski
Post Volume: Total: 865,938 Year: 20,974/19,786 Month: 1,371/2,023 Week: 322/557 Day: 15/47 Hour: 5/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does Islam need a Reformation?
CK
Member (Idle past 2449 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 46 of 300 (227023)
07-28-2005 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
07-28-2005 10:02 AM


Re: Renowned scholar's fault
You know this? or you are just making a wild guess?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4794 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 47 of 300 (227025)
07-28-2005 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
07-28-2005 10:01 AM


Re: Denial just gives the jihadists carte blanche
Yes. And, as you know, the problem is more than the Koran. it is also the hadith, such as this passage:

"The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:01 AM Faith has not yet responded

Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 300 (227026)
07-28-2005 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
07-28-2005 10:02 AM


Re: Renowned scholar's fault
No it hasn't.

Only in your dreams. I've seen old Qur'ans from past centuries on exhibition and the chapter numbers are always the same.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:02 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 10:09 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

CK
Member (Idle past 2449 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 49 of 300 (227028)
07-28-2005 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 10:06 AM


Faith to retract statement?
So in regards to this "theory":

quote:
Sure looks bad for renowned scholar except that you are quoting from a modern edition of the Koran, and he was writing in the 1880s. The man does not deserve your offhanded dismissal. There is some other explanation but I don't suppose it would be easy to produce a 19th century Koran.

Faith - unless you can support this statement in some way I take it you will retract it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 10:06 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:38 AM CK has not yet responded

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 300 (227029)
07-28-2005 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:56 AM


Sorry but this is not going to be accepted.
As I've pointed out too, if Jesus, like mohammed, has led countless battles, had many wives, married a child with whom he had a baby when she was 9 years old, and owned slaves (some made into concubines), then Christianity would be a very different faith and theological differneces would be moe pronounced and have greater implications.,.

That is a nonsensical statement and has nothing to do with the issue. Child brides were common right up until the 20th. century and so was polygamy. Jesus is seen by Christians as a divine individual however the Messiah was most definitely to be a war lord. Slavery also played a big part in Christianity and was supported theologically until the 19th. by Christians as well as Muslems.

Do not try to bring such nonsense into the discussion again.


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
Message 1
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:56 AM CanadianSteve has not yet responded

nator
Member (Idle past 491 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 51 of 300 (227030)
07-28-2005 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:56 AM


quote:
For sure there has been and continues to be significant differences between various branches of Christianity. But there is nothing in the NT that could be objectively read as equivalent to the War Verses.

Since when has any believer read their religious holy book "objectively".

It's not possible.

quote:
As I've pointed out too, if Jesus, like mohammed, has led countless battles, had many wives, married a child with whom he had a baby when she was 9 years old, and owned slaves (some made into concubines), then Christianity would be a very different faith and theological differneces would be moe pronounced and have greater implications.,.

Perhaps.

Of course, Jesus' popes have done all of this and worse.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:56 AM CanadianSteve has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 10:16 AM nator has not yet responded

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4794 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 52 of 300 (227033)
07-28-2005 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:41 AM


With respect to CAIR being an Islamist front:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=18919


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:41 AM CanadianSteve has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 53 of 300 (227034)
07-28-2005 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:56 AM


Christianity is a red herring
For sure there has been and continues to be significant differences between various branches of Christianity. But there is nothing in the NT that could be objectively read as equivalent to the War Verses.

That is exactly the point that nobody here has yet recognized. We're talking about the sacred texts of the respective religions, not how people behave, which may be anything given our fallen nature. Christianity may not have been lived in a Christian fashion by many, but also the New Testament does not support their unChristian behavior.

The Koran, however, does support both peaceable conversion and violent conversion, as well as simply slaying the "infidel," so that jihadists are being true to the religion.

As I've pointed out too, if Jesus, like mohammed, has led countless battles, had many wives, married a child with whom he had a baby when she was 9 years old, and owned slaves (some made into concubines), then Christianity would be a very different faith and theological differneces would be moe pronounced and have greater implications.,.

Yes, that's a good point too.

You might be interested in reading the chapter about Islam at the link I provided somewhere back there, Steve. Although I quoted only the parts for the sake of this discussion that demonstrate the violence in the spreading of Islam, it also gives a sympathetic portrait of Mohammed in my opinion. He was a man of his culture. Marrying a very young girl was not a violation in his culture, nor was owning slaves or polygamy. I think we mustn't judge him too harshly.

What is of concern to us about Islam is the fundamental DOCTRINAL elements within it -- not the usual wars and conflicts between people that are unfortunately "normal" to the human race, but OFFICIAL DOCTRINE -- which threaten the peace and stability of the world with which it comes in contact. I understand that the average Muslim gets defensive about this subject, but all that does is bury the problem and make it all the more dangerous.

Continuing to attack Christianity in this context is nothing but a smokescreen.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:56 AM CanadianSteve has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 10:19 AM Faith has responded

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4794 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 54 of 300 (227037)
07-28-2005 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by nator
07-28-2005 10:12 AM


I agree with both your points, but don't see them as contradicting mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by nator, posted 07-28-2005 10:12 AM nator has not yet responded

CanadianSteve
Member (Idle past 4794 days)
Posts: 756
From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 55 of 300 (227038)
07-28-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
07-28-2005 10:15 AM


Re: Christianity is a red herring
I don't mean to judge Mohammed badly. He was, as you say, a man of his times. But as you also say, he was the seminal figure of his faith, and is, therefore, the role model. Jesus was also, to non Christians, a man of his times. And, regardless of whether he was G-d or not, he elected to live contrary to his times with respect to those matters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:15 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:52 AM CanadianSteve has not yet responded

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2233 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 56 of 300 (227039)
07-28-2005 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:48 AM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
The issue is not subjugation. The issue is conversion by the sword being supported by the verses you originally quoted. My rebuttal is that given the context those verses do not encourage 'convert or die' but rather are descriptions of acceptable defensive agression.

Please respond to this specific point or withdrawl your claim. If you continue to avoid the issue I will be asking for moderator intervention.

Thank you.


Organizations worth supporting:
www.eff.org (Protect Privacy and Security)
www.aclu.org (Protect Civil Rights)
www.aaup.org (Protect Higher Learning)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:48 AM CanadianSteve has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 2:16 PM Jazzns has responded

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2233 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 57 of 300 (227041)
07-28-2005 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 9:50 AM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
Looking back I could not find a source that you listed nor the quotation from that source that shows jihad means physical struggle by default. If it was missed I appologize. If you could repeat the quote and the source that would be helpful.

Also, please address my Hawaiian analogy. Do you not agree that proper definition of words should be taken from those who use the words? Does "cool" in popular culture mean "something good" or MUST it mean "the quality of being of less temerature than a moderate temperature"? If you were writing about slang in popular culture which definition would you use? Would you be intellectually honest by using the other definition?

Please respond to specific points raised in rebuttal.

Thank You.


Organizations worth supporting:
www.eff.org (Protect Privacy and Security)
www.aclu.org (Protect Civil Rights)
www.aaup.org (Protect Higher Learning)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:50 AM CanadianSteve has not yet responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6814
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 58 of 300 (227043)
07-28-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 9:22 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Actually, I think the opposite. I believe Faith, unlike CandadianSteve, is sincere in her beliefs and sincerely believes that she has something important to say. Whatever her faults, I think Faith is more deserving of respect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 9:22 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 10:54 AM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 59 of 300 (227044)
07-28-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by CK
07-28-2005 10:09 AM


Re: Faith to retract statement?
I can retract my guess about what happened as I don't know the explanation, but the fact is that exactly what Schaff was referring to IS in the Koran although it is not NOW in the last chapter, mostly chapter 9:

This site is reinterpreting them nonviolently

Certainly, the Koran furnishes us with verses which have the appearance of extremely provocative utterances aimed at rousing the Mussalmans to a state of murderous mob-fury. “Go forth light armed and heavy armed and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah,” says the Koran (9/41). A verse of this kind does look like being more in the nature of a rabble-rousing ejaculation than a proclamation of preplanned and premeditated warfare. “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them” (9/5) is again, to all appearances, a call to lawless violence rather than a general’s directive to draw the battle lines with discipline and forethought.

Indeed, the whole group of the so-called Immunity Verses (9/1-12) of the Koran seems for all practical purposes to indicate a sort of abdication of the Islamic state’s responsibility for law and order by asking the Muslim masses to destroy the infidel population by whatever means available to them. A close examination of the context and consequences of the verses is, therefore, necessary to investigate the question of the relation of the doctrine of jihãd to religious riot. As has been mentioned earlier, the Immunity Verses of Sûrah Taubah were issued in early 631 AD to inform the idolaters of Arabia that after the expiry of 4 months their religion would no longer be tolerated. As Mohammed Pickthall, the orthodox translator of the Koran, mentions in the introduction to this sûrah, these verses formed the “proclamation of Immunity from obligation toward the idolaters” and “signified the end of idolatry in Arabia”. But how was that end to be achieved? By “slaying the idolaters” indiscriminately, says the Koran; by “besieging them” and by “laying for each of them an ambush”. In other words, Allah does appear to have sanctioned, by these verses, religious riots on an unprecedented scale.

Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society

Muslim theologians are unanimous in declaring that no religious toleration was extended to the idolaters of Arabia at the time of Muhammad. The only choice given them was death or the acceptance of Islam. This total intolerance never seems to be taken into consideration by the apologists of Islam when they lay claims to Islamic tolerance.  Unbelievers in general are shown no mercy in the Koran which is full of lurid descriptions of the punishments awaiting them.  xxii.9:"As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skins shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron- rods.  The Koran also enjoins all Muslims to fight and kill non-believers: xlvii.4: "When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."

This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 10:39 AM

This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 10:47 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by CK, posted 07-28-2005 10:09 AM CK has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33732
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 60 of 300 (227047)
07-28-2005 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 10:19 AM


Re: Christianity is a red herring
I agree, Jesus gave us an amazing antidote to the evils of this world.

I have to leave for a while. I am actually praying for you in dealing with this subject, Steve, like it or not, to be clear and cogent and unruffled -- you are all three anyway but one can always use help, right? I've never seen a topic here so aggressively and belligerently monitored as this one.

Carry on.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 10:19 AM CanadianSteve has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Jazzns, posted 07-28-2005 11:08 AM Faith has responded

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019