Why must we believe *before* we die?

The analogy seems a little confused. If we are fish, then the water corresponds to worldly evil, or something of that sort. Dry land equals heaven. So heaven can't be water.Heaven is the place where all the paradoxes are supposed to unravel--one is both a self and not a self; God is both all-powerful and all-good and yet contains or creates or permits evil; people are both free and pre-destined; what God says is good is good and yet God also obeys some higher laws of goodness . . . and many other impossibilites.

If everybody is equally bad, then He might as well let us all off. No need for hell.

There's your definition of goodness. Those who "reach out their hand" are good; those who don't aren't.This reaching-out-of-the hand is obviously of paramount importance--moral importance.

The self is selfish by its very nature. To be a distinct individual automatically includes the quality of self-ishness. The only way to lose one's selfishness is to be blended into a soul-stew of many, wherein the integrity of the self is lost. Here's the conundrum. There is no need for any distinction between "permitting" and "doing." What God permits must be good; if not, He is not good. One point of view has to be the real point of view. That would be God's, presumably, not ours. No, no, we can't be making these comments about God that make it seem as if He's not a being in an attempt to smooth over the logical problem. God is a being not a law. So a moral law is either right because God says so, or God is adhering to some moral system that he did not invent. If the moral law is right because God says so, then it is subjective on God's part. He might very well have decided on the opposite law--say, "Thou shalt murder." But if he is proclaiming what is right because it is right by its very nature, irregardless of what God thinks, then God is adhering to a system that is above Him. If we cannot understand this Being, then we have no way of affirming what he wants or doesn't want.

It is not I who is trying to wiggle off the hook--at least not the logical hook. There has to be some distinction between those who are damned and those who are saved, unless you are suggesting it's a lottery.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK. So how a person reacts to God's call determines their level of goodness or badness.Only good people go to heaven. I didn't say "perfect." I said good.

We are, obviously, using two different meanings of "selfish." You are using it in the moral sense, and I am using it in the logical sense. "Selfish" means, as I am using it, "qualities of being a self." If one is an individual, one has certain qualities. One of these "qualiities" is "selfishness." Now what does this mean? I think that would mean that one is concerned with one's self. And you are telling me that one can imagine a situtation in which one is not concerned with one's self? Of course one can imagine it. Of course, I attempt to help others. But deep in my heart--and perhaps deep in your heart--you know that the most important person is yourself.

You do not seem to understand my point.My point is that he who has faith in God is better than the person who does not.Only good people go to heaven.

This means, Faith, that there is no such thing as evil.

No, it's not ordinary, but I'm doing it because I think I have a point to make.I'm not real sure about my point--as usual.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 10-01-2005 11:18 PM

For many, religion is a mere hobby.

More nonsense. Christianity has as many rules and regulations as any other religion. Your bias is obvious.

Having faith.

Same thing. "Good"="righteous."

The Covenant of Grace.