Why must we believe *before* we die?

Those who reach out their hand are desparate. They've realised what they are before God. End of Romans Chapter 7 verse 9 to end. See anything you recognise about yourself? No it's not. The hand that is reached out is 'Le Fin' at the end of the movie. It's the process that causes the hand to be reached out that is of importance. It relies on God convicting the person of sin. Salvation is from God not from man. The person will be saved unless they chose to wiggle their way out of it. Denial is not just a river in Egypt...Are you rotten or aren't you? Look at your heart, look at the selfish thoughts, look at the lust. Then tell yourself "I'm not such a bad fellow - there are (Adam pointing the finger at Eve) worse than me" That's wiggling off the hook.

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

The distinction is how a person reacts to Gods call. God will tell us what we ought to do via conscience. Not must do. Ought to do. We chose to listen or not. Sometimes we will sometimes we won't. In that we are all in the same boat.God convicts (convinces) a person when they don't do what they ought. Guilty conscience, shame, etc. Now logic. Logically we can examine our conscience and see the guilt as guilt. Or we make excuses and bury the guilt. This we all do to. Both things. God continues to call. Pleasure and warm feelings when we do good, guilt, shame when we don't. Guilt piled upon guilt.We can do one of two things with this as the pressure builds of guilt piled on guilt:we can either continue to bury, deny, make excuses. This causes turmoil, neurosis, hardening of position (heart).Or there comes a point when a person looks at themselves and sees things for what they are and faces facts. They see that they are rottenEither routes are possible. The choice is the persons. Face up to the reality or not. If they do face up to it then comes despair. That is what the action of God may bring them to. To despair. Not because he wants to but because he loves us. Love isn't soft or soppy. Love can be very tough. This is serious business. The most serious of all. Eternally seriousAnd the only place for a person to go when they reach the truth about themselves is nowhere. Nowhere to run, no escape from what they are, no ability from within to resolve things. The person who thought they were on the throne, in control of their own destiny, who thought the world was their oyster - comes crashing down in the face of this reality. "Everybody my think I'm a great chap. Everybody likes me. But inside I know what goes on. I know the thoughts I have about people. Boy if people actually knew the perversion that is inside me they would puke"There are only one choice to escape from oneself when one has reached the end of oneself. Suicide. Or cry out to an unbelieved, unknown God - the only person who can possibly help.It is at this point, the point when the reliance on self is destroyed, will God step in. Only when a person acknowledges that they need God can God do anything with them.And for anyone who does cry out to him, he will answer. Guarenteed None are excluded except those who exclude themselves.

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life nobody comes to the father except through me"Unless it's through him you will NOT be alright. When and if ever you feel you have any interest in doing so then close your eyes and ask God to help you do so.If you ever get in a bad situation and it looks like curtains don't mess around. Ask him.All you have get to is the end of yourself in order to ask from your heart. And if you do he will respondDon't ever forget this....okay?

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

A person reacts to Gods call based on a willingness to deal with reality. Common sense. A sense that this makes sense. Hitler used Blitzkreig as a tactic not because it was good but because it made sense. He dealt with the realityI don't think I can stress how filthy a person is in sin when 'in' Adam. God's level of goodness looking down on our 'goodness' us is like a person standing on the moon trying to differentiate which grain of sand on a beach is closest to him."All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God""All your (self)righteousness are as filthy rags"Good just doesn't cut it with God. He's no fool

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Everyones desperate. The trouble is they haven't acknowledged that fact. People think they are content with life as it is - without God. They may well be content now, but life will always pop up things which will leave us helpless. I'm reminded of junkies who inside know something is seriously wrong but as long as the fixes keep coming, life is 'good' Facing whats wrong can be put off til another day.Futility of life is a Pandoras box waiting to be opened by everyone. Folk can delay the time when they open it, they may not even accept that life is futile when there can be no doubt that it is. Whatever, the only escape is into the ridiculous, the extreme, the perverse...Or God

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

The correct terminology is not 'good' but 'righteous'. A believer is declared righteous by God. Its a legal description that is applied to the Christians spirit. The Christian may do very 'bad' things - much worse than a non-Christian - but in the Gospel sense this sin resides in his mortal flesh (body, mind, emotions etc). The spirit is the relevant piece though. It is 'clothed' or covered with Christs righteousness and as such is consdered perfect - not good in a relative way.In heaven, the believers spirit gets a new body. Referred to as a glorifed body: one that cannot decay, sin, die etc.The process:God's effectual call drawing the person to the point of decisionAcceptance by the person of God - in whatever form that takes: but incorperating (whether the person sees it as such) heart assent as to his soverignty, the persons need and the persons invitation for God to take his rightful, prime place in the persons life.Some events then take place:Justification (by this act of faith by the person) A person is declared righteous. Their sins are forgiven because of Jesus' sacrificial act, the slate is wiped completely clean. 'Just-as-if-I'd' never sinned.Indwelling of the holy spirit. Whereas a persons spirit was "dead in their transgressions and sin" Gods spirit now takes up residence inside them and brings them to life. It is the moving in of the Spirit that a person notices. They feel alive for the first time. Born again in other words. Gods spirit never moves outAfter that a process pf sanctification takes place. Sin dwells in a persons 'flesh' (physical, mental body) not in their spirit. But now there begins warfare. The spirit which has come to life as well as Gods spirit within conflicts with sin within. The battle will rage and it can be vicous. Sanctification is the process whereby sin is pushed out of residence in the flesh and a persons spirit is (as I picture it) trained for life heaven. The person will never be perfect in the flesh. Sin will always be there waiting to pounce. But the process of sanctification does change the person. Aside from the pleasure and joy and peace it gives the person themselves it tends to becomes outwardly visible to others that something attractive is happening. This can be used by God to help speak to others on whom he is working at drawing to him.And no...I'm not very far along that path

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Every world religion except Christianity, is about one thing. Law. Do this, that and the other thing and you will get to heaven, nirivana or whatever. Do this to get right with 'god' be it going to church, meditating, praying x times per day, doing good, repeating mantras etc, etcChristianity is the only 'religion' where you postition or future depends NOT upon what you do but on what God has done for you.And there is nothing wrong with hobbies. So long as you are saved.

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

It should be easy then Name even one law, the carrying out of which will get you to heaven.This message has been edited by iano, 03-Oct-2005 09:46 AM

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Where is faith described as a law?

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

(edit: to correct and add verse)
Romans 3:20, "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin."Romans 8:3"For God has done what the law was powerless to do, being weakened by the sinful nature"The law cannot save. It is not intended to save. (edit) The law has only one purpose - to show us that we cannot keep it. It is not by following the law that we are saved but by realising that we can't follow the law.This message has been edited by iano, 03-Oct-2005 01:17 PM

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Where does Paul say faith is a law? Where does Jesus say salvation is by law? The law is anything but irrelevant but save it does notRomans can be divided into 2 sections chapter 1-8:4 or thereabouts deal with the mechanics of the gospel, thereafter Paul talks of how Christians should live in the light of the fact of what has happened to them. They should live in accordance with what they are: sons of God. "God has made you a son" Paul says - "it is inconsistant to act as if you are not" He is making the point that if you have been made an ally of God it is ridiculous to act as you once were...and enemy of God.Any talk of behaviour/law by Paul needs to be seen in relation to who he addressing. A Christian being urged to follow Gods laws is not being told this in connection with salvation - a Christian is already saved. Given that a Christian is a citizen of heaven and is being prepared for taking up residence there, it makes no sense to act like he isn't one. Whilst the law doesn't save, there are varying degrees of 'reward' in heaven dependant on ones attitude to the law. Legends reference in Matthew should be read. Verse 19 talks about the person who breaks the law being least in heaven and the person who upholds the law being greatest. Both are saved people however. The question is how does a law breaker and a law upholder get to heaven. It is patently not by following the law.

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

As with any part of the bible you have to read the verse in the context it is set in. Read the story a little bit further on. Jesus has listed a number of commandments and " The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?". Jesus said unto him "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.Covetness.....No one can keep all the law. Jesus just illustrates it here. Religion tells you to keep the law and you will be saved. But you cannot keep the law. You will always fail somewhere. The purpose of the law is not to save you by you keeping it. God knows you can't keep it. The law has nothing to do with your salvation...although it has everything to do with your condemnation - if it goes that way. The purpose of the law is to show you that you can't keep it. When you examine the standard of the law you will know that keeping it is impossible. It is Gods standard and all will fail. All except Jesus. He was the only one who kept all of Gods laws perfectly.Which is why he was considered a suitable sacrifice by God. He made patent what was latent in Old Testament sacrifices: a spotless sacrifical lamb - without blemish. He never broke the law, he never sinned. Spotless.

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Where is the biblical argument (and I don't mean an isolated verse) for "salvation by trying"?

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

Like I said, some scriptural backup for the stance could be introduced. Romans chapters 1-8 is a good summation of the mechanics of the Gospel and it's not in there. But you might disagree about the purpose of Romans 1-8.Where is this method of salvation backed up?

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....

First God separates the righteous from the unrighteous. That much has been decided. The righteous have done certain things. This can be tackled along two lines:a) Because they were righteous the sheep did these things. Romans 8:8 demonstrates that the unregenerate man (in Adam, unsaved) cannot please God. Such a man might do good things but these things are not pleasing to God. Only when a person is made righteous then he can please God.b) Doing these things made them righteous. Which you would argue I imagine. It is not evident from this passage that this is the case. Neither is there any reference to doing ones best. Further, it would seem that anyone who has done any good deed could claim righteousness as you would argue it - it being a rare occasion that a person would do no good deed all the way through their lives. However the bible indicates that it will not be the majority that go to heaven. Narrow is the gate that leads to salvation - few will take it / Wide is road that leads to destruction and many will take that. There is no reference to belief here because the passage doesn't deal with the mechanism of salvation - it deals with what will happen on front of Gods throne. Salvation or no has already been decided. This is about JudgmentThis message has been edited by iano, 03-Oct-2005 03:54 PM

---

"Jesus wept" John 11:35. It's the shortest verse in the Bible. What caused him to weep? Anothers death....