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Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 301 (282783)
01-31-2006 4:04 AM


To move on...
So, we've pretty much established that the Theory of Evolution doesn't demand atheism, an evil creator, a weak creator, or anything of the sort; that is, unless we hold the concept of a "Fall" to be illogical (but we don't, do we?). The ToE and Faith's interpretation of the Bible are mutually exclusive, but we all knew that. On the other hand, Jar's interpretation doesn't rule out evolution. Which interpretation is correct is another topic altogether.

Since the ToE allows for all kinds of gods, it clearly doesn't demand either materialism or nihilism.

Now for determinism:
"We evolved from simple organisms over billions of years, we share a common ancestor with amoebas and sheep, but the omnipotent creator has decided to endow all Homo sapiens with souls upon conception."

What's illogical with that? Maybe I'm missing something; it's easy to do that when you're playing Devil's advocate.


ramoss
Member
Posts: 3110
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 92 of 301 (282796)
01-31-2006 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
01-31-2006 12:45 AM


Re: Logic
The existance of suffering and death is incompatiable with 'The Good God" anyway. That has nothing to do with the Theory of Evolution.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

Modulous
Member (Idle past 271 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 93 of 301 (282802)
01-31-2006 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by robinrohan
01-30-2006 6:24 PM


I already did. Consciousness evolved.

So basically your entire argument is based on the idea that Consciousness evolved. What if the physical brain to house consciousness evolved, but the 'self' was specially created by a creator deity in order to drive the physical brain and give it free will?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by robinrohan, posted 01-30-2006 6:24 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 301 (282820)
01-31-2006 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
01-30-2006 5:52 PM


Lit-crit
The rhyming and scansion on that last couplet are dubious.

I know there aren't any forum guidelines on the specific use of poetic forms, but there should be.

Just a warning this time. :)

TTFN,

AW


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 5:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Omnivorous, posted 01-31-2006 9:26 AM AdminWounded has not yet responded
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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1134 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 95 of 301 (282832)
01-31-2006 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by AdminWounded
01-31-2006 8:17 AM


Re: Lit-crit
The rhyming and scansion on that last couplet are dubious.

I believe the term of art is "post-Fall couplet"--half-rhymes and extra feet.

*shudders*


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by AdminWounded, posted 01-31-2006 8:17 AM AdminWounded has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 9:56 AM Omnivorous has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 301 (282838)
01-31-2006 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by GDR
01-31-2006 1:16 AM


Re: The ToE and Gods
Death was not part of God's creation. It is part of the ToE, in fact essential to it, it is driven by death.

This message has been edited by Faith, 01-31-2006 09:37 AM


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Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Jazzns, posted 01-31-2006 4:06 PM Faith has responded
 Message 213 by clpMINI, posted 02-02-2006 12:01 PM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 97 of 301 (282840)
01-31-2006 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Modulous
01-31-2006 12:50 AM


Evolution is incompatible with a good God
Any God that starts with a simple life and after much death develops man is not the God described in the Bible as far as Faith is concerned. Man came before death according to Faith.

And according to the Bible too.

This is the SIMPLEST possible point I'm making that everybody is refusing to recognize. Why don't you all fight with Robin when he says it? Does he say it that much more neatly? Maybe so.

Death and suffering are intrinsic to evolution.

Death and suffering are alien to a good God, the God the Bible describes.

To accept evolution we must accept either atheism or an evil or incompetent God.

This message has been edited by Faith, 01-31-2006 09:48 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 12:50 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by kjsimons, posted 01-31-2006 9:50 AM Faith has responded
 Message 102 by Parasomnium, posted 01-31-2006 9:59 AM Faith has responded
 Message 106 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 10:03 AM Faith has responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 667
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 98 of 301 (282843)
01-31-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
01-31-2006 9:45 AM


Re: evolution is incompatible with a good God
Well Faith, death and suffering happen in this universe.
Supposedly, your god made this universe.
So your god made death and suffering happen, so your god is an evil or incompetent god. No fair blaming Adam and Eve for eating the apple. Your god set them up for a fall, so he is ultimately responsible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 9:45 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 9:52 AM kjsimons has responded
 Message 101 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-31-2006 9:56 AM kjsimons has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 31727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 99 of 301 (282844)
01-31-2006 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by kjsimons
01-31-2006 9:50 AM


Re: evolution is incompatible with a good God
If you want to believe that, fine, that is your God, not mine. Mine is a good God and mine is incompatible with the ToE. Yours has no problem with the ToE.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by kjsimons, posted 01-31-2006 9:50 AM kjsimons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by kjsimons, posted 01-31-2006 10:00 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 31727
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 100 of 301 (282845)
01-31-2006 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Omnivorous
01-31-2006 9:26 AM


Re: Lit-crit
I believe some Indian tribes consider perfection to be a challenge to the gods. Humility requires bad rhymes and scansion. :)

This message has been edited by Faith, 01-31-2006 10:36 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Omnivorous, posted 01-31-2006 9:26 AM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12424
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 101 of 301 (282846)
01-31-2006 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by kjsimons
01-31-2006 9:50 AM


Re: evolution is incompatible with a good God
Perhaps part of our "evolution" as a species is that we have been given the wisdom to change our selfish (and survival) behaviors and, even though it goes against human comfort, to develop an altruistic nature! I mean, if God exists and is an evil or indifferent God, how would we even have a desire to attain good and be noble, selfless, and altruistic ourselves?

1) We are evolving to a better understanding.....AND/OR

2) We have been "given" a specific amount of time to apply the understanding that we were given


This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by kjsimons, posted 01-31-2006 9:50 AM kjsimons has responded

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 863 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 102 of 301 (282848)
01-31-2006 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
01-31-2006 9:45 AM


Re: Evolution is incompatible with a good God
Faith writes:

Death and suffering are intrinsic to evolution.

Death and suffering are alien to a good God, the God the Bible describes.

To accept evolution we must accept either atheism or an evil or incompetent God.

Here's another version:

  • Death and suffering are intrinsic to life in the twenty-first century.
  • Death and suffering are alien to a good God, the God the Bible describes.
  • To accept life in the twenty-first century we must accept either atheism or an evil or incompetent God.

    So if you want to avoid having to choose either atheism or an evil or incompetent God, you must deny the reality of life in the twenty-first century. Either that, or you could try to convince me that death and suffering are not intrinsic to life in the twenty-first century.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 97 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 9:45 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 104 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 10:02 AM Parasomnium has not yet responded

  • kjsimons
    Member
    Posts: 667
    From: Orlando,FL
    Joined: 06-17-2003


    Message 103 of 301 (282849)
    01-31-2006 10:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 99 by Faith
    01-31-2006 9:52 AM


    Re: evolution is incompatible with a good God
    Faith, your god brought death and misery upon his creation, it says so in your bible. Nevermind why he did it, but he did. You say evolution is incompatible with your god because the process involves death and suffering, but then your book says god created death and suffering. Seems your view of god is incompatible with your bible.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 99 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 9:52 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 105 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 10:03 AM kjsimons has not yet responded

    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 31727
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 104 of 301 (282851)
    01-31-2006 10:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 102 by Parasomnium
    01-31-2006 9:59 AM


    Re: Evolution is incompatible with a good God
    Death and suffering came with sin. That's not God's doing.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 102 by Parasomnium, posted 01-31-2006 9:59 AM Parasomnium has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 145 by Funkaloyd, posted 01-31-2006 7:31 PM Faith has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 31727
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 105 of 301 (282852)
    01-31-2006 10:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 103 by kjsimons
    01-31-2006 10:00 AM


    Re: evolution is incompatible with a good God
    This thread is not about bible interpretations. My God is incompatible with evolution no matter which other versions are compatible. You can't tell me what I believe.

    This message has been edited by Faith, 01-31-2006 10:38 AM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 103 by kjsimons, posted 01-31-2006 10:00 AM kjsimons has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 206 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-02-2006 10:17 AM Faith has not yet responded

      
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