What evidence absolutely rules out a Creator

I've said it before Robin but it is worth repeating: for a non-Christian you make a surprisingly good Christian apologist. If there is a halfway house between being in Christ and in Adam then you've discovered it!One of the goals of apologetics is to maintain Christianity as an intellectually viable option. I'm delighted to see your intellectual acceptance of it (notwithstanding the relatively insignificant problem of evolution). Hopefully there exists a couple of perforations in your head and this intellectual acceptance is leaking down into your heart as I write.Fine post that...

I'm just back from evening #4 of an Alpha course we're running up in the church at the mo. A kind of "What is this Christianity thing all about?" course. One of the aspects discussed regarding the relative positions between God and mankind was the out-of-context, yet useful (for evangelical purposes) illustration from Revelation 3:20: (Jesus speaking) "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door I will come in and dine with him and he with me"One of the participants asked the question "Hear his voice - like what does that mean?" Out of the blue another piped up "Maybe its like this Alpha course - we're hearing about Jesus and listening to things which he said - kind of... like... "hearing his voice"The hearts of the Christians there gathered leapt silently at this oh-so-simple-yet-spot-on observation. Your understanding the difference between God foreknowing and God ensuring causes the same kind of thing to happen in me. You may think it simple intellectualising but I doubt many others will get it. Try arguing to point a little and watch the resistance. You'll tire before long...

Go on Robin, forget Jar and the perennial 1 or 2 liner bait. I'm enjoying reading you this last while. Tell us what you think of it all...(oops just about 2 lines of bait)This message has been edited by iano, 16-Mar-2006 11:27 PM

How do you know that?

What you seem to say is that it is not possible for God to provide proof of his existance to an individual.How do you know this?(If answering then maybe AbE in your last post... as will I. I don't want to OT absorb remaining posts at this juncture){AbE in response to post 228 by Jar) You were climbing in the Grand Canyon. You stubbed your toe against a rock a cried "Bugger". You didn't stub it bad enough to mark it nor did you have a video of the event. You were alone at the time. Doesn't knowing you stubbed you toe ace (as far as you are concerned) being able to prove it to others?My question remains on this basis: How do you know?{Abe in response to Jars msg 233} Read it again Jar. I already said you cannot prove you stubbed you toe to others. But you know you did. Which is the issue at hand. Remember: Can God do as I suggest he could? Could he demonstrate to an individual that he exists. If not, how do you know he can't.This message has been edited by iano, 17-Mar-2006 01:23 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 17-Mar-2006 01:24 AMThis message has been edited by iano, 17-Mar-2006 01:45 AM

I've edited my last post to reply. If you would like to reply then edit your last post so as not to incur the righteous wrath of an admin for OT posting. Otherwise feel free to leave it.And leave "How do you know?" hanging in your corner...

As one who was were Robin is, I shiver at the sense of deja vu. There are direct parallels w.r.t 'getting it globally' whilst being permitted protection along the way by way of paper tigers, in this case "Evolution is proven by the fossil record" My own paper tigers turned out to be a red rag which was pulled away at the last moment resulting in me being run through with a truth sharper than any matadors double-edged sword.And it didn't hurt a bit.(Not to put any pressure on you RR but this on-the-inside-looking-at-someone-on-the-outside-going-'Ping' (notwithstanding the perfunctionary denials of God along the way) has me rivetted). That one about God foreknowing the fall but not necessarily being responsible for Adams chioce was a diamond nested in a bed of gemstones. PoE's abound...Completely OT, but if one where to have a EvC get-together and Robin turned up, would anybody be surprised (going on that pencil sketch) if he actually resembled this gentleman...Discover Financial Services

Sorry Faith...it was late.I did an Alpha course on the way to becoming a believer and the folk who led my group remind me now that a repeated phrase of mine during the bible discussion part of the evening was "Hey that makes sense" and "that fits". Within the closed system of the course it all fit. Now if someone had asked me at that time (outside the closed system of the course) whether I believed the fossil evidence proved evolution I would have said "yes". God was working away however, revealing truths whilst sidestepping the need for me to reconcile all beliefs that I had at the same time. The closed system eventually spread to become the whole.Point being, that Robins grasping of the rational with respect to, for instance, Gods foreknowing the fall not affecting Adams ability to chose, is something (if persistant EvC refusal to grasp it is anything to go by) which would appear to require Gods illumination to get. His holding that evolution is true at one and the same time is irrelevant at this point. That can evaporate in the mist when the time comes. If it comes.ps: I linked it elsewhere but you (and Robin) may find this site useful. There are a good number of audio lectures on the whole area of apologetics which discuss very many of the self-same views we encounter hereBethinking.org - making sense of the big questions about life - bethinking.orgRight, back to the totally secular, post-modern St.Paddys Day. My better half just had the idea that we should enter a float in next years parade. Splendid idea. Remind folk about what St Patricks day is about and all that.

The time of my conversion is a bit fuzzy as to sequence of events. As I recollect, I read a pamphlet one night that my mam had given me years previously, called "Why Jesus?" I prayed the prayer at the end and the next morning was wondering what this sense of peace was which glimmered in amongst the usual stomach-churning turmoil. It seemed to encapsulate the notion that "Everything is going to be all right" I didn't really associate it with God at the time. I think it wasn't long afterwards that I went on the Alpha. (My mam knew folk in the church I went to and was on tenderhooks the whole time with the reports back. Occasionally, I would miss an evening due to my work and my mams heart would fall "He's lost interest " she would think, in doubt, to herself)The folk running the course who became friends later told me afterwards that they knew in me that they had struck a gusher. I couldn't get enough. When the final dinner was held on the last evening of Alpha I remember being heartbroken at it all ending. I wanted it to go on forever. This fascinating God, these great people who didn't cut and snipe - and I had to back to life as it was before?? I didn't want to go back."Well we're starting a bible study on Tuesday next. Would you like to come?"Would I what!