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Author Topic:   What evidence absolutely rules out a Creator
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 85 of 300 (294896)
03-13-2006 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Faith
03-13-2006 10:19 AM


Re: My view
ith
Humans had free will, the ability to disobey God at will. {abe: If they had't had free will the creation would not have been perfect}. If they hadn't disobeyed there wouldn't have been a Fall. But they did and here we are
Why would god allow a serpent into eden to tempt the humans who were already obeying the command not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? They did this in spite of the fact that before eating of the fruit they were incapable of knowing the consequences of eating the fruit. I say this since it is a sin to disobey god and a sin is an evil act. Thus,before eating of the fruit that allowed them to discern good from evil,they could not be aware that it was an evil act.
God works in mysterious ways. LOL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Faith, posted 03-13-2006 10:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 03-13-2006 12:34 PM sidelined has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 124 of 300 (295077)
03-14-2006 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
03-13-2006 12:34 PM


Re: My view
Faith
That is the problem though. They were obeying until God allowed the serpent to tempt them. Thus God himself set in motion the temptation that he himself will not allow his children to attempt upon him. {Thou shall not tempt the lord thy God}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 03-13-2006 12:34 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 03-14-2006 2:01 AM sidelined has replied
 Message 129 by Phat, posted 03-14-2006 4:28 AM sidelined has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 126 of 300 (295083)
03-14-2006 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
03-14-2006 2:01 AM


Re: My view
Faith
The meaning of the latter is that we are not to put ourselves in danger counting on God to get us out of the jam.
How does that then square with these verses here then?
Exd 17:1 And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment of the LORD, and pitched in Rephidim: and [there was] no water for the people to drink.
Exd 17:2 Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD?
Exd 17:3 And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore [is] this [that] thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst?
Exd 17:4 And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, What shall I do unto this people? they be almost ready to stone me.
Exd 17:5 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel; and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, take in thine hand, and go.
Exd 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.
Exd 17:7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not?
Here they were in danger of dying of thirst not putting themselves in harm's way, yet they are accused of tempting God.
Temptation to sin, however, is the lot of humanity, and we are responsible for our endless failures. Free will has to be tested doesn't it? How would it be clear we had free will otherwise?
What would an all knowing God need with temptation since he already knows what is in your heart?
As for free will it is not altogether clear from experiment that we do indeed have free will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Faith, posted 03-14-2006 2:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 03-14-2006 3:06 AM sidelined has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 140 of 300 (295156)
03-14-2006 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Faith
03-14-2006 3:06 AM


Re: Different meanings of temptation
Faith
OK, yet another shade of meaning to the term, but still not the same thing as tempting one to sin. They tempted God in this case by complaining rather than having faith in Him that He would take care of them. Tempted Him to wrath, to punish them.
What is God's problem? Just exactly how difficult is it for a god that created a universe, to be incapable of being beyond wrath? Why would the pleadings of a people over whatever be of any consequence to him? If he had endless love would he not also have endless patience? LOL just what the heck could possibly disturb a god that wields infinite power?
Why is God tempted to wrath by people not having faith in him when he had no faith in Adam and Eve continuing to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil? Why would he introduce temptation into Eden? Did he intend his world to contain evil that would tempt them?
This message has been edited by sidelined, Tue, 2006-03-14 07:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 03-14-2006 3:06 AM Faith has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 146 of 300 (295192)
03-14-2006 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
03-14-2006 10:22 AM


Re: Postmodernism and current definitions of rationality
Phat
1. Objectivity
True Christianity starts from the premise that there is a source of truth outside of us. God's Word is truth (Psalm 119:160; John 17:17). It is objectively true-meaning it is true whether it speaks subjectively to any given individual or not; it is true regardless of how anyone feels about it; it is true in an absolute sense.
This is the first paragraph under the heading Objectivity.
In the same paragraph it states its premise{Tere is a source of truth outside of us} immediately followed by the conclusion {god's word is truth} Without going through an arguement to support the position.
Then it proceeds to further embellish the conclusion as being objectively true in an absolute sense.
This is a vacuuous statement because it does not explain the rational between the premise and the conclusion.It does not even attempt to show what other possibilities could exist that might be capable of supporting the premise yet not reach the same conclusion and attack those arguements to show how they are not capable of support of their conclusion.
Then in the second paragraph we find this little gem.
Of course this existential generation finds such a view utterly distasteful. People prefer to seek truth inside themselves. If they contemplate the meaning of Scripture at all, it is usually only in terms of "what this verse means to me"-as if the message of Scripture were unique to every individual.
What is the arguement that supports this conclusion? Be wary of statements where the opening 2 words are "Of course" if they are not followed by a line of reasoning to show the validty of the statement. How do they know it to be distateful? They can assume it to be disatasteful but must defend the postion. What conceit on the part of a person allows for such a view to take root?
Perhaps they can explain why it is wrong to seek truth inside oneself? Perhaps they have a valid point to make amongst all of this. How can one know if they fail to engage in discourse to allow others to argue?
Then we have the next in line under Rationality
Biblical Christianity is also based on the conviction that the objective revelation of Scripture is rational. The Bible makes good sense. It contains no contradictions, no errors, and no unsound principles. Anything that does contradict Scripture is untrue.
It gets better in the next paragraph
That sort of rationality is antithetical to the whole gist of post-modern thought. People today are taught to glorify contradiction, embrace that which is absurd, prefer that which is subjective, and let feelings (rather than intellect) determine what they believe. But such irrationality is nothing less than an overt rejection of the very concept of truth.
I do not know if this is a direction you yourself want to take Phat. What do you think?
This message has been edited by sidelined, Tue, 2006-03-14 09:04 AM
This message has been edited by sidelined, Tue, 2006-03-14 09:05 AM

This message is a reply to:
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