God is cruel

in what way is allowing ALL humanity to be punished when ONE man commits murder or adultery, just or fair??I'm failing to connect the dots Dorfman, show me how !

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"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Dan and I have been having duels since 2003. In the end I always annoy him more with my irrefutable brilliance. Because, as Brain and Dan both know, if it is down to them then it is their responsibility if they are right about going to hell for being atheist. If it isn't their fault, then they can blame God.Nobody forces you to pick any cupcake Dan, you cupcake!This message has been edited by Deerstalker, 04-06-2006 08:54 AM

Yeah, he's half-right. It's always so fun when you tell me what I'm really thinking.I don't believe in God, Mikey. So it's irrelevant to me whether or not he cares if I'm an atheist. You might as well ask how much I care whether or not the aforementioned butt monkeys blame me for my belief.Doesn't change that belief isn't something you choose; it's something to which you're led.

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"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

It's worldviews that shape reality for us. Ultimately, with have minds to choose do we not?I was listening to Hugh Ross and Kenneth Samples, on this issue. Samples was pointing out that if a UFO fanatic seen a light in the sky, then his worldview would shape his conclusion, and he's think it an alien craft.So how do we get worldviews? By thinking along certain lines we get them. But at no time are we forced to restrict ourselves to a certain viewpoint, IMHO. Because afterall, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.I think this concludes our debate.I must suggest at this stage that I am irrefutabley unrefuted and cannot therefore answer your posts from now on(Take care.

Yeah, we can always choose our actions, which our influenced by our automatic beliefs. Cool. Choose to believe the ideas ofDavid Icke. After all... at no time are you forced to restrict yourself to a worldview that tells you "the man's a nutcase."

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"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

What if both religions were equally plausible, couldn't you just pick one and believe in that? That would be choosing to believe in something. I get what your saying and agree with you for most situations. In real world applications its true, but WRT god et al it is different."I can jump 10 feet high." I don't believe it and I can't just choose to believe that, me disbelieving it isn't something I choose, it just is.But, when it comes to god, I have to say that I do choose to believe in him. There is no evidence either way and no automatic belief either way, I access the situation and conclude that I do believe in god. That conclusion is a choice, its up to me whether or not I believe.

I don't see how this is true.. but I'm going to run with it.
is this Just?
is this fair?
should I suffer because someone far away, with no connection to me decides to spend the night with a hooker?

I understand you've heard these things manytimes here, but I've never, ever seen them answered satisfactorily. I'd like to think I'm quite an open minded, agnostic person.
My eyes are open but thus far there's been nothing to see.

If they were both sounded true, wouldn't you be led to believe them both? Unless they were mutually exclusive, in which I would think it would result in more of a crisis of faith than a nonchalant decision.In either case, is faith a game of eeny-meeny-miney-mo? Wouldn't your assessment just be an analysis of what's already in your mind? Introspection is good, but it's not the same as conscious direction.Most importantly, though... now you've concluded that you do believe in God. Great. Assuming no new information or experiences come along and change your point of view, could you choose to do otherwise? Could you say, "I've come to the conclusion that God is there, but I'm gonna go ahead and not believe in him?"

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"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

That or I could choose one over the other, especially if they were mutually exclusive. Well, those are the two extremes, it could be something in between. I agree that it would be closer to the crisis, as the decision is hardly nonchalant, but being towards the crisis end doesn't remove the choice. Sortof, but without the randomness. You can eliminate some of the possibilities and then make choices about whats left. Some things don't provide you with an automatic belief or disbelief, you have to ponder and decide on what you think, especially things that are not objectively defined. What are you saying here? I think so. But not nonchalantly. Its not like a light switch that you can just turn on or off. Still though, it comes as a choice.

So what would your choice be based on, if both are perfectly equal in your mind? All you've done is rephrase the question... how does one decide on what they think? That the pondering you describe above is a process of looking at what's in your mind, and understanding what it says about your beliefs... which is not the same as deciding what you want to be in your mind, and forcing it to be the case. These statements kinda contradict each other. Even if it's a difficult light switch to flip, it's still yes or no.Belief involves the knowledge that something is true. (Whether the person's belief is correct or not is beside the point.) If you know something is true, then it might as well be like deciding to believe that you can, in fact, jump ten feet high, despite your knowledge that you can't.

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"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

riVeRrat Such as flat earths, fixed stars, perpetual motion machines, etc. That is how science works though. We put together models such as the theory of evolution, theory of relativity, and never once try to "prove" it right but only attempt to produce an experiment or view an observation that deinitively falsifies it.As Einstein once said. ""No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong."Thus we advance science by attempting to falsify the model. Your model that includes God has no means by which it can be falsified.

I dunno....eeny-meeny-miney-moe...no, but I still don't really know how I'd choose, it depends on too much. What!? You don't decide what you think?I mean, I am having trouble getting the image of my girlfriend in that red dress out of my mind, but I am still in control of my thoughts. I agree that those two are not the same thing but WRT to god the first one is still a choice. But I don't know that god exists. And I especially don't know that he exists like I know I can't jump 10 feet. Still, I believe that he exists, by choice.I agree that for things you know are true, you have no choice in your belief about them, but for god its different. Its not like a light switch, its not an unconscious decision, its something that I choose to accept and put faith into. The belief in god remains a choice IMO.Did you make your avatar?

Maybe that's not the best example, then. Nope. The thoughts come, as a reaction to the world around me.Can I put things out of my mind, or recall them on command? Sure. But I can't, for instance, decide that I now think Bush's politics are a good thing, or that the taste of sweet potatoes is appealing. How does looking at something and understanding it involve a choice on the matter? Then I guess the question I need answered is how one can believe in something they don't know is true. Wouldn't that lack of certainty make you an agnostic?I mean honestly... if you say you believe in something, you're saying it's there, right? Yep.

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"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

Weirdo. I'm pretty much in control of my thoughts, although the world around me can have an effect on them. What about when you cut off the world around you (close your eyes and ears), without any input do you still lack control? Yes, I agree that you cannot make yourself believe something that you don't believe. The choice comes in your interpretation. What you decide the answer is to what you see and understand. I'm not agnostic because I believe god exists. I can beleive it with a lack of certainty with faith. I guess so. Good job. It looks like you and it really captures your smart-ass attitude. Whats with the red scarf?