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Author
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Topic: Try to keep hatred out of our Constitution.
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 239 of 298 (316639)
05-31-2006 3:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 237 by rgb
05-31-2006 3:29 PM
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Re: The REAL problem
Perhaps I've become more senile than I thought, but I could have sworn you've repeatedly tried to justify your position by referring back to your christianity. That's just a step away from saying "the bible says..." In general I don't argue about gay marriage based on the Bible or anything to do with my Christian beliefs, and I haven't on this thread. You are no doubt thinking of some other subject. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 237 by rgb, posted 05-31-2006 3:29 PM | | rgb has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 240 of 298 (316641)
05-31-2006 3:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 237 by rgb
05-31-2006 3:29 PM
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Re: The REAL problem
Appeal to tradition.
Appeal to popularity.
Slipery slope.
False dilemma.
To name a few. A few what? Fallacies you've committed?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 237 by rgb, posted 05-31-2006 3:29 PM | | rgb has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 254 of 298 (316671)
05-31-2006 5:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 251 by nator
05-31-2006 5:04 PM
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Re: The REAL problem
I have not argued one thing from "tradition" or from "religious belief." I call bullshit. You have repeatedly argued that homosexual marriage goes against the "historical" view of what marriage should be by noting that "historically", marriage was an exchange of property, including the wife, from her male relative to her husband. I have never said any such thing. You have but I haven't. And what that has to do with religious belief is beyond me anyway.
This shows that you are arguing against gay marriage because it goes against traditional marriage. I have not argued from tradition either, let alone religious belief. I've said that marriage in its various forms, none of which includes homosexuals, goes back to the very beginning of recorded history, and has existed in every culture on earth. That's not "tradition" as I understand it, that's arguing from universal practice. Tradition is culture-defined. This is defined by all humanity in all times and places. Edited by Faith, : include quote box
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 251 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 5:04 PM | | nator has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 258 of 298 (316675)
05-31-2006 5:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 246 by nator
05-31-2006 4:50 PM
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Re: The REAL problem
It's scary that you can think of a sexual aberration as something normal like race that deserves equality. I think that Fundamentalist Christianity is an abnormal aberration and certainly not normal, yet I fully support equal rights for those who choose that lifestyle, because everyone deserves equal rights. Far as I know we are qualified for whatever rights we enjoy. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 246 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 4:50 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 260 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 5:34 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 259 of 298 (316679)
05-31-2006 5:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 257 by nator
05-31-2006 5:27 PM
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Re: more doublespeak by Faith
The traditions the cultures bring to marriage are all different, but the fact of marriage itself is universal across all humanity in all cultures and times, and except for Nero's wanting to marry a male homosexual friend, which some Roman senator or other worthy dismissed as sheer foolishness, I know of no human group anywhere that has countenanced gay marriage. Again, "tradition" is normally understood to refer to the unique and arbitrary practices of a given social group, but if it is humanity-wide you are talking about something fundamental and universal, on the level of an instinct, if science terminology helps get it across.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 257 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 5:27 PM | | nator has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 261 of 298 (316681)
05-31-2006 5:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 260 by nator
05-31-2006 5:34 PM
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Re: The REAL problem
You don't qualify for rights. You just have them. Thus the term human rights. If you have to qualify for them, they are privilages, not rights. Good point. Marriage is a privilege, not a right, and you do have to qualify for it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 260 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 5:34 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 264 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 5:47 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 263 of 298 (316684)
05-31-2006 5:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 262 by nator
05-31-2006 5:41 PM
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Re: what I'm really interested in is this
You might want to take your answer to me out of the quote box. I'm saying that heterosexuality, which includes the potential for "unassisted procreation," has always been the whole point of marriage. I didn't say that procreation was the only reason for marriage, I said that heterosexuality is the funamental qualification.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 262 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 5:41 PM | | nator has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 265 of 298 (316687)
05-31-2006 5:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 264 by nator
05-31-2006 5:47 PM
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Re: The REAL problem
If you call marriage a right, then there are some rights that have to be qualified for. I'm easy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 264 by nator, posted 05-31-2006 5:47 PM | | nator has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 269 of 298 (316694)
05-31-2006 6:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 267 by DBlevins
05-31-2006 6:02 PM
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Re: more doublespeak by Faith
It gets very tiresome having words put in one's mouth. I have NOT argued gay marriage from my religion. I am arguing only from what I know of history and I never heard of same sex marriages except the one example of Nero's little act of debauchery which was criticized by a Roman leader. Polygyny is simply one of the forms of marriage, contradicting nothing I said, so there was no need to mention it.
The fact is that historically, same sex marriages in many diverse cultures, were considered normal. Among them, Greece, Rome, China, The Middle East, Japan, etc. You offer no evidence of this, but if it is so, I abandon the whole argument. It does now become a matter of God's having abandoned America to destruction, and since that is obviously His will, let it be I say.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 267 by DBlevins, posted 05-31-2006 6:02 PM | | DBlevins has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 275 of 298 (316715)
05-31-2006 8:20 PM
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Reply to: Message 271 by DBlevins
05-31-2006 6:54 PM
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Re: more doublespeak by Faith
I didn't accuse you of TRYING to put words into my mouth but of DOING it. I did not SAY what you said is my position and it is not my position.
same sex marriages are universal, fundemental, and undeniably historic. There is NO evidence for this aside from the assertion in the article on the Indians you linked, and I have no idea what authority that carries. The Wikipedia article says nothing whatever about homosexual marriages that I can detect on a quick read. Nobody is disputing that homosexuality has always existed and we know it was particularly practiced in Greece. So what? The subject is MARRIAGE. "Liaisons" are not marriage. You have given no evidence for your claims. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 271 by DBlevins, posted 05-31-2006 6:54 PM | | DBlevins has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: hate is really immaterial to this discussion
the idea that there is no cultural precedent for same sex marriage is preposterous. How very odd then that there is such a great abundance of NO evidence for that claim.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: hate is really immaterial to this discussion
Freedom consists in being able to do whatever does not harm the other: thus the exercise of the natural rights of man has as its only limits those that assure other members of society the enjoyment of the same rights. So simple. Extending a noble expression of principle to ratifying a sexual perversion is probably a new low, though I'm not completely sure. Perhaps it has been bested.
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Re: hate is really immaterial to this discussion
begging tradition. baseless claim. provide evidence. Aw gee, you'd think some people didn't have two eyes. Male and female genitalia designed to fit together isn't evidence enough for you? A perversion is a turning away from the OBVIOUS natural use of what the physical parts are obviously designed FOR. Good grief. Sure you CAN use them for all kinds of purposes if you like, but the point is that doing so is a deviation from their natural purpose (deviation = perversion = aberration), and yes, there is an OBVIOUS purpose for which they were designed. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 292 by iano, posted 05-31-2006 11:55 PM | | Faith has replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 293 of 298 (316764)
05-31-2006 11:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 292 by iano
05-31-2006 11:55 PM
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Re: hate is really immaterial to this discussion
Sorry, I'm at a loss, bro. What's the flaw?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 292 by iano, posted 05-31-2006 11:55 PM | | iano has not replied |
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