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Author Topic:   Try to keep hatred out of our Constitution.
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 183 of 298 (316363)
05-30-2006 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by New Cat's Eye
05-30-2006 5:37 PM


So far as I can see your messages make a case for gay marriage. The bigger the commitment, the less likely it is to be taken on for improper reasons.
If gay marriage is not allowed then simple fairness requires that gays should be allowed the same benefits for whatever, lesser, commitments society permits them to make. To say that gays should be denied certain benefits because society won't permit them to make the formal commitments that would entitle them to those rights is hardly a defensible stance.k

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-30-2006 5:37 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-31-2006 9:13 AM PaulK has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 213 of 298 (316568)
05-31-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
05-31-2006 12:24 PM


Re: The REAL problem
There is no use in calling people irrational simply because they do not share your opinions. Nor is there any use in declaring your opinions logical truths.
Heterosexuals are allowed to enter into commited relationships with their lovers which give them certain privileges and rights. And there is no reason why homosexuals should be denied similar privileges if they are prepared to make the same commitment. A say in the medical treatment of their partner is one obvious example. Therefore any claim that homosexuals "lack the basic requirements for marriage" should be viewed with suspicion.
Tradition is not a valid reason to maintain discrimination.
Nor, in a secular state, is religious belief a reason for witholding a purely secular legal status.
SO there is certainly room for disagreement with your declarations, evne though you declare them as unquestionable fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 05-31-2006 12:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 05-31-2006 1:02 PM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 224 of 298 (316589)
05-31-2006 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
05-31-2006 1:02 PM


Re: The REAL problem
quote:
And I did not call anyone irrational simply because they do not share my opinions.
That is exactly what you did.
quote:
I have not argued one thing from "tradition" or from "religious belief." Please review my argument. It is about logical qualifications for marriage.
Logic in itself cannot give you "qualifications for marriage". Any such qualifications necessarily depend on your idea of "marriage" and if others have a different view than yours the problem is not in their logic.
Message 137, Message 178 indicate that religious beliefs as the basis your view of homosexuality (a relevant issue)
In Message 99 you refer to marriage as a "cultural institution" to argue against change, and I don't think that it is wrong to label that an appeal to tradiiton. After all, institutions can be changed, so why woudl calling something an institution help your case if you were not appealing to tradition ?
And in Message 56 the appeal to tradition and religion is quite clear.
quote:
...the definition of marriage does not require the Bible. It is as old as history and as broad as all cultures on earth. The Bible happens to define it clearly enough..
(And I note that although callign others irrational you also argue that "Freedom of Religion" in the U.S>means that "a "Tyranny of the Majority" is acceptable if it is based on religion, which is quite the opposite of the truth).
In short you insist that you concept of marriage is the only valid one, based on an appeal tp religon and tradition. And that is the whole of your argument.
quote:
There are ways gays can legally arrange for certain rights that do not involve marriage, which only damages the whole meaning of marriage for everyone.
I do to see how anyone could honestly make the claim in the last sentence. It certainly isn't true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 05-31-2006 1:02 PM Faith has not replied

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