Try to keep hatred out of our Constitution.

kuresu asks

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general question, especially for Faith . . .

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It is the religious right pushing the amendment, no?

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The religious right is a christian movement, no?

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That would the imply forcing one's religous views on others, no?
Does not the first amendment state that "congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion, or the free excercise thereof", right?

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Would defining marriage as it is in the bible (so that it is US law) not be violating the first amendment?

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What if it is their "religion" to practice homosexuality? Can you then deny them of their religion?

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Can you deny them the right to privacy? Can you deny them the right to property (I'm assuming that at least some of the 1000 statutes deal with property and taxes, and taxes are property)?

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Even though the Declaration of Independence is not the supreme law of the land, does it not have the statement "right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" (this statement being almost exactly copied from Locke (right to life, liberty, and property) (which is how we have the current understanding that Jefferson was talking about property). Again, do you have the right to restrict their rights to "happiness" or "property"?

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Are you willing to subjugate a people for your own "moral safety" or for their own "moral safety"? Are you trying to protect the fabric of American culture? Are you willing to destroy unalienable rights and freedom to keep our culture? (By the way, I happen to think that those are the hallmarks of our culture)

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Finally, what is your reason for denying them?

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To which everyone answers

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I think these questions are not unimportant enough to be completely ignored.Anyway, here are my answers.

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It is the religious right pushing the amendment, no?

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Yes, but they are backed by politicians who want to make a splash big enough to be reelected. I'm still waiting for Bush to make the speeches on the urgency of the matter and doing everything possible to ban gay marriage like he claimed what an important issue it was during the 2004 reelection campaign. I'm also still waiting for fire and brimstone falling from the sky in places where they have allowed such union.

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The religious right is a christian movement, no?

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Not necessarily. While they are certainly the loudest, this movement includes Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Wizards, etc.

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That would the imply forcing one's religous views on others, no?

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What's new about this?

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Would defining marriage as it is in the bible (so that it is US law) not be violating the first amendment?

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Not if you claim you heard a booming voice that you were sure was god.

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What if it is their "religion" to practice homosexuality? Can you then deny them of their religion?

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I know of no such religion, though.

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Can you deny them the right to privacy? Can you deny them the right to property (I'm assuming that at least some of the 1000 statutes deal with property and taxes, and taxes are property)?

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apparently, not. Remember those men who were caught having sex in their own bedroom and were charged with the hundred year old sodomy law in the late 90's in Georgia?

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Even though the Declaration of Independence is not the supreme law of the land, does it not have the statement "right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" (this statement being almost exactly copied from Locke (right to life, liberty, and property) (which is how we have the current understanding that Jefferson was talking about property). Again, do you have the right to restrict their rights to "happiness" or "property"?

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Sure, if you want to prevent yourself from going to hell.

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Are you willing to subjugate a people for your own "moral safety" or for their own "moral safety"? Are you trying to protect the fabric of American culture? Are you willing to destroy unalienable rights and freedom to keep our culture? (By the way, I happen to think that those are the hallmarks of our culture)

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Apparently, many are willing to do so.

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Finally, what is your reason for denying them?

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I don't have any reason to, but apparently many people do.Edited by rgb, : No reason given.

iano writes

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Mothers marrying sons?

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I personally don't have any problem with a mother marrying her son as long as both are legally defined as adults and there is no force of will on either side. But then again, my live and let live part of my conscience is too strong for me to see why it's any of my bussiness to tell any two consenting and productive adults why they shouldn't do whatever the hell they want as long as they don't hurt each other or anyone else.Edited by rgb, : No reason given.

iano writes

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Pray tell what business of yours is it if two adults decide they want to hurt each other?

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If you mean physically and mentally, then sure I'd try to inform them the best that I can what it might feel like. If they're masochists, then they'd hurt themselves no matter what.Tell me this much. How are any two consenting adults who have fallen in love with each other hurt anyone at all if they decide that their relationship benefits both of them?

truthlover writes

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It seems clear to me that there is a lot of hate expressed on both sides of this homosexual marriage issue, as there is on both sides of almost every other political issue.

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I must confess that I do have ill will toward christians, muslims, jews, and just about every other group of people that claim to have the moral high ground.

truthlover writes

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was just saying that not all those that wish to legislate morality are practicing hatred. Nothing more.

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I can only think of another reason, and that is pure selfishness.

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In the United States, homosexuality is quite legal, and general public opinion is that it is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle.

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This is what I would call half-truth. It became completely legal only in the early 2000's. In the late 90's, there were still states that still had sodomy laws in place.

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Therefore, I assume that the laws of the United States are going to treat it as a perfectly acceptable lifestyle.

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Only after a couple of men were arrested for having consensual sex in their own bedroom in, I believe, 1998.

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Those laws do not completely reflect that now, although they've been moving in that direction for a while. They will continue to, and I don't think it can be otherwise. I don't even want it to be otherwise.

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New battlegrounds.

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I'm sure that's my oversight, but it happened because I don't want to legislate against homosexuality, so I never gave a thought to arguing for it.

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This sounds awefully familiar.

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To me if you legislate against homosexuality, you're also going to have to legislate against pre-marital sex and adultery (the latter is legislated against in some places, like the military). In fact, you'd end up legislating against all things that are sin by mainline Christian standards, and you'd wind up back in Calvin's Geneva, a place I wouldn't care to live or, in fact, be allowed to live.

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Ok.

schrafinator (Gums) writes

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But why else do you reject homosexuality if not through disgust and fear of homosexual behavior?

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Well, many homophobes tend to have homosexual tendencies themselves. The straightest of straight men I know have no problem being kissed on the lips by other men. To them, it has so little affect on them that they just don't care.

Faith, do you use logical fallacies knowingly or unknowingly?

schraf writes

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What we find is that these feelings do not change, and instead gay people in these places tend to suffer from more depression and commit suicide more than in places where they are accepted.

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I have a friend whose parents grew up and got married in a very small conservative town. According to my friend, they never really got along but did what was expected of them. After she went to college, her parents both came out and started being honest with each other. The last time I met her parents, her father was a full blown gay and her mother was a full blown lesbian.If you are gay and you grow up in an environment where you'd get hanged for not drooling at the cheerleaders, you will likely do what is expected of you and then live the rest of your life in misery.Persecuting certain people doesn't make them go away.

Jar, just so you know, it is kinda amusing from my perspective (non-christian) to see 2 opposing christian groups here telling each other that they're not really christian.I think it's a matter of the point of view you are from. To me, 'live and let live' outweighs just about every moral objection one can have. This ultimately brings me to one conclusion, that legislating morality for the purpose of not allowing a group of people of pursuit of happiness for whatever reason is hate. People can call it whatever they want, and they have every right to. But for me, I will continue to view it and call it hate.

RickJB writes

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How exactly is the position above "logically" derived?

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Give it up. I've dealt with her kind before. They are completely logical on all things, they know everything there is to know, and the rest of us are dumbasses. I have to admit that I'm a logical fallacy freak, and her posts make my eyes wanna pop out.For instance, to her, it is completely logical to use an ancient holy book as a guide to legislate laws that govern everyone. Get the picture? And I wish you the best of luck if you decide to pursue this further.

Faith writes

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More and more my suspicion that people just can't think is confirmed.

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You're right, I can't think.

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Funny. I haven't said a word about any ancient holy book and my arguments about gay marriage have never rested on it. Ever.

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Perhaps I've become more senile than I thought, but I could have sworn you've repeatedly tried to justify your position by referring back to your christianity. That's just a step away from saying "the bible says..."

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Funny. Lot of posturing about logical fallacies there, no substance.

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Appeal to tradition.
Appeal to popularity.
Slipery slope.
False dilemma.To name a few.

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Whole argument is personal and emotional, not a stitch of logic.

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Of course it's personal. We're talking about my fellow citizens, not some numbers or statistics.