Free will: an illusion

there are, are there not ex-Christians on this website?
folk who believed, but no longer do.

It would certainly provide a challenge for your beliefs. However I'm not sure of the wisdom of thinking "well I can't think that cos that means I've been wrong all these years"
You seem to be simply pushing aside any argument that challenges your position wrt God/Omniscience/ free will here. Perhaps the basis on which you say anything is flawed? I am accepting for the purposes of this discussion that
a)God Exists, and
b)He is all knowingWhat I am pointing out is the condratiction (as I see it) between these assumptions and any claim of free will.
You seem, at this stage, to be saying "well that can't be right, because that means I'm wrong" rather than actually challenging the point. Again... it is not sufficient to dismiss the issue merely because it challenges your position, you should investigate that challenge, try to understand the depth of that challenge, try to counter that challenge, defend against it. If you cannot counter it, or defend against it, it is likely/possible that the challenge holds water, and the idea being challenged is flawed. Within the confines of you a.k. God scenario yes. However if God is not a.k. or does not exist, then we are merely biological machines, who possess free will as our fututre is unknown and based only upon the choices we make, Not what some God has known for eternity.You appear to have a boundary, a boundary across which you will not go. That boundary seems demark the point at which anything challenges your beliefs. Any point I raise that questions either
a)the existance of god, or
b) the omniscience of God
must be thrown out ignored, that appears simply to not be an option you are willing to discuss.Edited by Creavolution, : No reason given.

What I am saying is that the idea of free will coupled with an all knowing god is in itself a contradiction. there is no need for me to try to define or limit or disprove an all knowing god. The parameters of the Xian teaching does it nicely. For my part I cannot reconcile an all knowing god with free will. so either:
God does not exist, or
he is not all knowing.

Well I guess only the people concerned (and God) are aware of whether or not they ever truely believed...however this is OT and not for discussion here

there is not need to fast forward, i would prefer if you could explain to me why you feel that an A.K. God is not imcompatible with free will. I have Explained why I think the two are incompatible. If you cannot even attempt to refute this point move on to the others. They can be treated seperately. but that does not change the fact that if the outcome is foreknown any 'choice' is illusory, 'likelyhood' doesn't even come into it. God knows what will happen regardless of the outcome. it is unchangeable. otherwise God is wrong. Influence or lobbying is essentially irrelevant. the outcome is the outcome is the outcome, regardless of what influence I exert regardless of what lobbying i attempt, God knew from the dawn of eternity what the outcome would be. I don't see this, I have made a point in the plainest terms I can. I don't see how you answering this in the affirmative will turn you into a machine.What happens though is that it leaves two possibilities:
1) God does not exist, or
2) God is not all knowing
IF you are unwilling to entertain any notion which may lead to one of those conclusions you are in deed pushing the argument aside. You are unwilling to pursue an argument which may lead you down the path to questioning the nature or the existance of god. the question is not illogical, the question is based upon applying logic, when logic is applied, the a.k. God = free will scenario becomes illogical you need not rid yourself of these assumption to consider and answer the question (assuming you can answer it in such a way as to demonstrate the a.k. God and Free will are not mutually exclusive), But the answer, or the discussion may provoke you to rethink these assumptions, examine them closer consider if they are mutually exclusive or not. You keep mentioning Logical Fallacy, I either don't under stand what you mean by logical fallacy or simply don't see it. I am applying logic to the situation. the result is, the situation does not stand up to scrutnisation. Can you explain how you become a machine if you answer in the affirmative? as I see it, if you answer in the affirmative you either accept that god is not omnicient, or accept that he may not infact exist (at least as per the Xian definition). [/qs]The thread is not about the existance of God or whether he is all knowing.[/qs] That is precisely what it is about, The contradiction between A.K. God and free will results in these issues being called seriously into question.If you are unwilling or unable to consider the first point maybe you could consider the other 2?- Is it fair that God ask us to make a choice while withholding vital information/evidence?
- As a result of the fall, how can you trust your own judgement in recognising God? and making the right decision whether or not to reject him?

Iliogical within the confines of an A.K. God.If God is not A.K however...

I will be bailing out for now... work commitments and the weekend, hope to pick back up on monday (or if the work day slows down)

My God.. You've got it! I am not asking you to accept that an 'all knowing god makes free will and illusion' and God is not all knowing.
I am saying that an all knowing god makes free will an illusion, therefore either god is not all knowing or we have no free will [abe:] a.k. god and free will cannot coexistthat is it, one of those statements must be correct(in the context of the argument) otherwise it is illogical. You have seen the light! we cannot have an all knowing God and free will.. that is illogical Iano, you really are making a meal of this.Answer me this:
Can you explain how an all knowing god, one who knows our every move, past present and future, can be compatible with our free will? Any choice we make only 'seems' like a [abe]'Free' choice to us. Because the outcome is foreknown. unchangable. The question is not illogical. You are brandishing that word like a shield to deflect the issue.
The illogic of the A.K. God = Free Will CAUSES the question to be asked.I feel that you see the illogic in the A.K. God = free will scenario, but rather than deal with it you are projecting that illogic onto the question?
The substance of the question is:
"how can A.K. God be compatible with free will"there is no illogic in that question. the illogic arises if you try to make the two compatible... they blatantly are not. the question show the illogic of your position.Edited by Creavolution, : spellingEdited by Creavolution, : clarity and spelling

So answer it in the negative... show me your position. show me why you hold that position.

I don't think you have. Numerous mentions of illogic and logical fallacies do not constitute a response to this issue. I'm sorry, but it really appears like you're trying hard to side step this...however... the opportunity remains for you to respond to the other two points.

Iano..You believe:
a) we have free will
b) God is all knowingI believe:
a)Free will and an all knowing god are incompatible
b)Therefore, either We do not have free will or God is not all knowingTHe illogic is in your beliefs. when we examine the extent of any free will when all outcomes are forknown, it becomes obvious that there can be no co existance of free will and an A.K. God. I have been suggesting this for some time now.. If you are unwilling or unable to address the first question head on then there is little point in considering it. You have not AFAIAC shown any illogic in my question, but rather my question shows the illogic of your position.

Stalemate? to me that suggests that both sides of the argument are equally strong so as to make further discussion pointless...in this case you are simply refusing to address the issue. because the outcome will undermine your beliefs..let's move on to the other two points.

I didn't reply to this because PY had covered all the points I wanted to say.. also, My issue is primarily with ianos belief in an all knowing god. see the opening post: handwaving of this sort is not a valid argument you are simply saying well It's god.. he can do anything... *magic*there is no argueing with that position. there is no logic involved in it.

By machine you mean a being who's future is foreknown? non changeable?I will say this only one more time, PLEASE read it.Free will is negated by the presene of an all knowing God. God knows what will happen, there is no alternative to what God knows IF he is all knowing. therefore any choice we feel we are making is illusory. the outcome is known (by an A.K. God) there will be only one outcome. no matter what I do I cannot change the outcome because it is already known.So.. one of two things must be true
either:
1) God is not all knowing, or
2) We do not have free will.So there are Two possible scenarios available to us to avoid this apparent illogic
Personally I feel answer (1) is more likely (Given that I seriously question the existance of any God anyway). But you can make your own choice. The point I am making is that answers (1) and (2) cannot both be wrong. because logically, if something is foreknown by an all knowing being It cannot be changed or affected.the dilemma is not with the question/proposition I am putting fwd it is is with your beilef that God is all knowing and we have free willTHe question is:
Does an all knowing God make free will an illusion?
My answer is:
Yes.
so either:
God is not all knowing and we have free will
or
God is all knowing and we have no free will
but not bothSo, I have answered 'Yes' to the question. yet the answer is not illogical, The answer, however, shows the premise to be illogical, so the premise (The coexistance of A.K. god and free will) is flawed, incorrect.
we must re examine that premise so that it is not illogical, hence the two options I have outlined above My personal take would lean more towards free will for me and a god who is not a.k. or does not exist at all. you have not shown this. I have, above, shown how I can answer the question with a yes. that yes answer shows the illogic of your position and requires that that position be re-evaluated.I really am begining to suspect you're being a little dishonest here iano, If you have nothing to add I suggest you simply move on to the other two points.

this may be the crux of your problem here iano.. the only alternative you see is that we do not have free will..and thus cannot even have this argument(a point you have not sufficiently backed up IMHO)
However, I offered two alternatives..we have no free will
or
God is not all knowingI have repeatedly shown how a situation where our choices are known before we make them excludes free will. given that we cannot in truth affect those choices.