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EvC Forum ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Faith and Belief ⇒

Free will: an illusion

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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 14 of 309 (321607)
06-14-2006 9:07 PM 		Reply to: Message 12 by Heathen
06-14-2006 9:00 PM

Speaking as a Christian and xian.
Hell no. Whether you believe or not has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. Everybody starts off saved. Everybody starts off innocent. Your salvation will depend on how you live your life. Try to do what is right, try not to do what is wrong, exercise your freewill within the constraints that exist and you'll do fine.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 9:00 PM Heathen has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by rgb, posted 06-14-2006 9:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 20 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 9:56 PM jar has not replied
 Message 71 by cavediver, posted 06-15-2006 7:38 AM jar has not replied
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 21 of 309 (321626)
06-14-2006 9:58 PM 		Reply to: Message 18 by rgb
06-14-2006 9:51 PM

Re: Speaking as a Christian and xian.
Jar, your answer is great. But let's be honest, you're not the typical christian, not to mention right wing. As a matter of fact, many christians would label you as a damned.
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Really? Seems like looking at the posts of other Christians here I may well be far more representative of Christianity than you might think. We have a few very vocal Christians here who would agree with you, but far more that seem to agree with my point of view. And it looks like more and more voices speaking out against the exclusionary Christians everday.
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by rgb, posted 06-14-2006 9:51 PM rgb has not replied
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 164 of 309 (322317)
06-16-2006 2:14 PM 		Reply to: Message 163 by PurpleYouko
06-16-2006 2:07 PM

Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
There is always the issue of having some ability but then not using it. The problem I have with that is how do you tell the difference between a God who has the ability of foreknowledge but doesn't use it and one who does not have the ability at all? If we add in an additional selective layer, God uses his ability of foreknowledge selectively, in some cases he uses it, in others he does not, it only makes God even more capricious.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-16-2006 2:07 PM PurpleYouko has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 166 of 309 (322328)
06-16-2006 2:30 PM 		Reply to: Message 165 by PurpleYouko
06-16-2006 2:25 PM

Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
I guess it could be argued that if he knows which timeline would become reality then we are back to square one but maybe it could be argued that since (at the time of knowing) all the timelines are equally real so it doesn't matter.
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The problem faced by Paul Atreides.
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But he at least acknowledged his own cruelity.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-16-2006 2:25 PM PurpleYouko has replied
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 Message 178 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2006 10:02 AM jar has replied
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 185 of 309 (323205)
06-19-2006 10:27 AM 		Reply to: Message 178 by New Cat's Eye
06-19-2006 10:02 AM

Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
Do you think god would be cruel if she was capricious?
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Yes in the sense of arbitrary and capricious. If GOD is capricious, then there really are no rules, no right and wrong, no freewill and no standards.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2006 10:02 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2006 5:43 PM jar has replied
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 220 of 309 (323448)
06-19-2006 6:13 PM 		Reply to: Message 213 by New Cat's Eye
06-19-2006 5:43 PM

Re: God's capriciousness
What about capricious but not arbitrary?
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I can't see a way that GOD could be capricious and not arbutrary. That may just be some limitation of mine but it is one I don't see a logical way around.
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Why do you think that if god has the ability but chooses to or not to use it, then she is capricious?
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Well, that would mean that any given moment, any given act, might or might not be subject to freewill. Freewill then becomes more or less a crapshoot, dependent on whether GOD has used Her ability of foreknowledge regarding that particular incident.
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jar writes:
​
If GOD is capricious, then there really are no rules, no right and wrong, no freewill and no standards.
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to which Catholic Scientist replied
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quote:
I don't really see why but if you don't feel like typing it out, no problem.
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Because you have absolutely no idea of what GOD's perspective or reaction will be under any given set of circumstances or whether you are making choices or GOD has stepped in and removed freewill in this particular instance.
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-19-2006 5:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 11:59 AM jar has replied
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 233 of 309 (323847)
06-20-2006 12:12 PM 		Reply to: Message 230 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 11:59 AM

Re: God's capriciousness
You would have no idea which acts were free and which were predetermined, but god would and could be basing it on good reasons. It doesn't have to include the randomness.
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Could be, but how would anyone tell? It may not have to include randomness but how could we tell? From the human perspective, which is all we have to go one, it would be random, capricious.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 11:59 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 12:27 PM jar has replied
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 241 of 309 (323862)
06-20-2006 12:40 PM 		Reply to: Message 238 by New Cat's Eye
06-20-2006 12:27 PM

Re: God's capriciousness
So it doesn't really make god capricious, it just makes god capricious from the human perspective. Of course you couldn't tell if it was random or not, but not knowing doesn't mean you should assume its random.
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What else could I assume based on the evidence available?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 12:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-20-2006 1:55 PM jar has not replied
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