What makes a terrorist a terrorist?

Yup.I think this is a variation on the approach that if they are on our side or their goals line up with our interests they are freedom fighters and if we perceive they're acting against our interests they are terrorists.

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Oops! Wrong Planet

The Americans in WW2 where a bit more aprehensive about indescriminant bombing but most of the allied nations specifically targetted civilians as effective war policy. The goal of the bombing was not only to destroy infastructure but to also destroy the will of the people to keep fighting.The truth of the matter is that the only wars in history could ever have been considered to be 'won' were done so on the basis of terrorism. War IS terror!Scorched earth policies are very effective. This seems coarse but that is what war is. The reason the north beat the south is because the north was willing to go in and put to the fire anything that could possibly be usefull to the southern government regardless if it was civilian or not. That is why we beat Germany. That is why we lost in Korea and Veitnam. That is why we are loosing in Afganistan and Iraq. It is sickening, vile, and disgusting but it is a plain and simple fact of war.Even during the American Revolution, more progress was made toward ending the war by meaningless naval incursions into British waters then anything the armies were doing on the ground in the colonies. England lost not because it didn't have the capability, but because it lost the will to fight.You cannot seperate war from terrorism. Terrorism is a fact of war. We use terrorism all the time in both our history and current policies. Yes we have this semblance of nobility in our attempt to limit damage to military targets but in reality there is not such great distinction that would allow such an effort to ever be effective.Israel knows it is killing civilians. It is doing so as part of policy just like us in Iraq. In terms of war, their only failing is the belief that this nit-pick style of half-hearted warmongering is at all effective.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

They might, but this overlooks the fact that they are defensively responding to an ideologically-driven enemy that wants Israel not to exist. If that enemy just minded its own business, negotiated for a state that sought peace with its neighbor Israel, none of this violence would be happening at all.

A slight hiccup in an otherwise compelling assessment

Are you going to say why or just toss out one liners?Of course it was not the only reason why we beat Germany. But it IS a fundamental difference in the style of conflict between that war which we won and subsequent wars in which we lost and had no business loosing.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

The context seems to ignore the contributions of many nations, not least of which, the Soviets, in beating Germany.

Well I was just being brief. Of course the Soviets also indiscriminantly killed civilians as part of policy. In fact, they did it with much more barbarity and much more personally then the folks on the western front since they didn't have quite as much experience carpet bombing German cities. Their policy was more of the "rape and pillage" variety rather than simply putting an explosive on every square inch of German territory. It was also very successful in breaking the will of the Germans. The point remains the same.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Okay. I thought that patriotism had gotten the better of you, sorry.A good point on effective war being necessarily terroristic (if I may coin a phrase). I knew all the bits but never tied it together. Stands to reason when you think of it.

In case you have forgotten all about the Oslo accords, Fatah conceded a whole lot. Including the right for Israel to exist.There are Jewish groups in Israel which don't want to accept that, that don't want peace. Don't forget that it was a Jew who assassinated Rabin. The situation is more symmetrical than you want to admit.

Faith writes:

quote:

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They might, but this overlooks the fact that they are defensively responding to an ideologically-driven enemy that wants Israel not to exist. If that enemy just minded its own business, negotiated for a state that sought peace with its neighbor Israel, none of this violence would be happening at all.

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Huh? The Irgun wanted the British Mandate not to exist. And they didn't just "mind their own buisness", they bombed a hotel and killed 91 people, mostly civilians. Do you consider that an example of "negotiating for a state"?

the problem is that to the palastinians israel is not a neighbor it is occuping what was the palastine ...both claim the same land ...so how do you resovle such a matter ???the modern israel state is based on a land grab and then defeating the arab armies ...technically israel is an invader who is , to the palastinian nation ,a ideologically-driven enemy that wants them not to exist.much of the population of lebanon is this displaced peoples who cant go home because israel is there ..hence the wish israel did not exsit ...both sides are locked in to a no escape conflict ...all we seem to be able to do is count the number of inocents killed .. and israel is clearly killing more ,destroying more home, roads ,bridges, power stations ,airports , causing mass evacuations ....at what point do you judge a defensive responce has become a vengefull agression ???

The Palestinians have no right to it. It legitimately belongs to Israel, who bought much of it. The Palestinian cause is completely trumped up. There was no Palestinian people until quite recently either. This is false. There was no land grab. They possessed the land legitimately, bought quite a bit of it that had been owned by others, and otherwise there had been Jews living on the land for the last two millennia same as Arabs. There are also a million Arabs living within Israel proper as citizens. They are not excluded at all.There was no Palestinian people, only various Arab groups, some Muslim, some Christian, when the original building of Israel began. Most of the "Palestinians" who are there now are descended from Arabs who moved in to work for Israel in its early stages, they did not live on the land before that. There was no Palestine as any kind of national or even tribal entity. This is absolutely false. Israel is not an invader, they legitimately possess their land, and in fact by rights a lot more of it than they are allowed to have. The Arabs have been the aggressors in all wars and conflicts. And you are just mindlessly parroting my term "ideologically driven." That refers to Islam which regards Jews as inferiors, and the PLO that refused to let Israel exist. Israel has no ideology, it is operating as a modern nation in self defense. Israel has time and time again tried to help establish a Palestinian state, but the Palestinians have refused. It is not Israel whose maps picture a Paelstine free of Palestinians but Palestinian maps have no Israel on them. That's all propaganda, all lies. Your view of the situation is entirely bogus.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Yea. Just like the Iroquois, Cherokee, Algonquin, ...I mean damn. They didn't even have a capital city or regular army or anything! How could they possibly be considered a nation? Can't be because they were ACTUALLY LIVING THERE!..Oh wait, I forgot. My family does not exist. Sorry Faith. I forgot what facts are and are not in your fantasy world. Rapture here we come.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I've never doubted that your family's ancestors lived in Palestine, since you say so. Why should I doubt you? But from what I've read, many different peoples lived in Palestine, and not even in tribal groups except for the nomads and the Jews who were also there. There was no identifiable Palestinian nation, tribe, anything. Those who were living there went on living there. Some now live in Israel proper. Some sold their land to the Israelis. There was no injustice committed against them and no reason why they could not have gone on living in peace with Israel if it hadn't been for the terrorist mentality. Not at all. Those were clearly tribal groups.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

So the terrorists make the Israeli government bulldoze acres of ancient olive groves? Different from the tribal entities that existed in Palestine how?Just as a hint, Palestinian families don't have last names. We have a tribal or clan name. Could it be because we are tribal entities? Hmm...