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Author Topic:   What makes a terrorist a terrorist?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4108 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 256 of 300 (338201)
08-06-2006 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by Faith
08-06-2006 5:36 AM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
OK, then I will take back the apology.

That wasn't an apology, so there is nothing to retract. Saying I'm sorry your stupid and ugly is an insult, and not taking responsibility for what you have done.

You said basically the same thing that the leftists say and the terrorists say and that almost everybody else here at EvC says in one form or another. The PC party line. I see no real difference.

That's interesting since much of my position is culled from purely conservative sources and in direct defiance of leftist positions. At the very least I have said that I support a continued presence in Iraq until a stable gov't is formed, which is diametrically opposed to liberal dogma on the issue.

I also want you to put your money where your mouth is and show me one thing that I say that the terrorists say... or apologize for that odious and fallacious claim. You are the one claiming that they have the true interpretation "because Khomenei says so" which I have been bucking from the get go.

This whole argument that terrorism is provoked by Israel,

Show where I said that or apologize. I never had and never would say such a thing. Terrorism has many different roots and agendas.

AQ, one of our main enemies, claims to be somehow connected to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but it clearly is not and just uses that as cover. Get it? No matter their pretense our main enemy at this time has NO real connection or interest in the Palestinians besides self promotion.

However some groups ARE provoked by Israeli activities, at the gov't level, or at the local (settler) level (their terrorist actions are given free passes). Some are offended by the existence of Israel as a nation regardless of what it does, and some by jews.

One cannot address all groups with the same stroke, regardless of whether one condemns their activities. It is to completely miss the roots of the problem and possible solutions.

I will now deal with your reply to my original post.


holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 5:36 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:45 AM Silent H has responded

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 257 of 300 (338203)
08-06-2006 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
08-05-2006 10:37 AM


Re: You need to convince them, not me
I don't have much time to respond to the rest of this post today (12 hour days are killing me!), but I just wanted to address this particular bit:

You cannot claim that the peaceful interpretations are correct when you see what Khomeini says above. And his reading is obviously shared by the Bin Ladens and the killers of 9/11 and other Muslim terrorists all over the world.

Osama bin Laden and Khomeini do NOT share the same interpretation of the Quran. Khomeini is a Shiite and bin Laden is a Sunni. While some points may be similar, that is like saying that Pentecostals and Baptists share the same interpretation of the Bible. If it came down to it, they would be at each other's throats.

I will continue when I get home from work.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 10:37 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:27 AM Jaderis has not yet responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4108 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 258 of 300 (338208)
08-06-2006 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Faith
08-06-2006 3:48 AM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
It is what they would claim, and it is how it looks to me upon reading it myself, and their particular interpretation, which they believe is the true one, has certainly wreaked havoc in the world now and in the long history of Islam.

Well my first question would be how you square the passages that extoll mercy and peace with your interpretation. Khomenei felt they were necessary to address (which means they exist) so I'd be interested in why you agree with Khomenei over the larger group of mullahs he was addressing who think different.

My second one is what do you know about the long history of Islam? Their early days were no less bloody than that of Jews and Xians at that time. They then shifted into a very long period of protecting Jews and science from Xian persecution. That it changed again does not suggest anything other than that the religion is as much open to cultural movements as Judaism or Xianity which have also gone back and forth over time.

This prissy academic concern about the "correct" interpretation is just a distraction.

I do agree, so why do YOU keep bringing it up? Most people here are clearly put off by your insistence on discussing that issue when the subject is Islamic terrorism. If YOU dropped it, my guess is so would everyone else.

So I'll drop the "literal" already. Let me rewrite the Offending Paragraph:

No my problem was not just with "literal". Can't you read your own writing or is it too meandering for you? Check this sentence out...

You cannot claim that the peaceful interpretations are correct when you see what Khomeini says above

If that does not say I cannot claim peaceful interpretations are correct, you'd better rewrite it. I personally do not claim the Quran is inherently "peaceful" but must point out it has many more peacefull and merciful passages than warlike ones (which apparently is why Khomenei was facing the opposition he was facing). What's more the warlike passages tend to be limited in scope and prohibitive of many types of violent action.

Thus it is like all other religious texts in that there are many viable literal interpretations, and the only thing one must take at face value is what an adherent claims to believe for themself, and not what is "truth"... though as I said I am sort of compelled to note there is a lot more peace and mercy going on in the Quran than in Jewish and Xian texts, so I'm pretty sympathetic to muslims who emphasize those goals as more important.

Where did I say they hold the "true literal interpretation?"

I hope I have cleared that up, but to repeat just in case... You continually describe terrorists as being the literalists as opposed to everyone else, and said that peaceful interpretations CANNOT be said to be true because of what people like Khomenei say. That pretty much limits the options on who holds the only true literal interpretation.

I believe that it is open and shut that the literalists' interpretations are thoroughly supported by the Koran and backed up by other Islamic writings and history

And yet you then proceed to do it again. Do you not know what "thoroughly" means? If you mean to say that there is material within the Quran which allows people to form a warlike interpretation, then there is no argument.

Clearly people have done so. Just as Catholics and Abortion clinic bombers have formed interpretations based on the Bible many other Xians do not agree with. It would be incorrect for me to claim that their interpretation is throroughly supported by the Bible, right? After all there are plenty of people who disagree and can point to inconsistencies which by definition makes the alternate interpretation less than thoroughly supported.

You have a different view about what the facts are about what Islam teaches, different from many others who have no doubt studied Islam more than you have, not just the terrorists themselves but many ex-Muslims, who are not afraid to say that those readings about a violent jihad are quite legitimate, and others who have spent time studying it.

And yet you persist in making this insinuation that the terrorists have the valid interpretation. Look Faith I have known muslims and they hold different interpretations and I have read the Quran and come up with a different read. I also can find many groups that do not agree with the warlike interpretation.

I find your comment here bizarre as that also means I am not allowed to decide that Catholicism is not the valid form of Xianity, using the exact same criteria. Heck, I can turn around and claim that YOU can't decide what is a valid form of Xianity too.

There are plenty of "experts" in all religions. The end result is that there are a lot of different valid interpretations, it all depends on personal choice regarding emphasis of certain passages... even from a literal perspective.

When things were going well he preached a peaceful religion; when people refused to accept his teaching he started imposing it on them by force, and killing some for refusing. Khomeini is simply commenting on his view that it's cowardice that embraces only the merciful side of Islam and ignores what he makes only too clear is an out and out murderous side.

Gee I wonder where I keep getting the impression that you are delivering a biased view which claims Islam involves and inherent promotion of violence? Yes, clearly Khomenei is preaching something along those lines (though I'm sure he'd call it justified killing, just like the Abortion clinic bombers). What you have yet to show is what justification he has for any of his claims?

That he claims to be a true and inerrant scholar of Islam does not make him either.

Killing someone you consider to be a "criminal" without due process you would equate with that argument. That's unbelievably absurd. The whole tone of Khomeini's speech is to encourage wanton killing, slitting throats and cutting off hands and so on, the opposite of legally conducted executions and war or any humane system of jurisprudence on the earth for that matter.

1) I was including those Xians that advocate the "execution" of people like gays, blacks, jews, and abortion doctors (and everyone in their vicinity).
2) I find this particularly interesting, especially in your insistence on due process in an earlier sentence. In our current war on terrorism Bush himself has enacted a scheme of no trial and no due process as a form of legitimate warfare against criminals. Many evangelists have backed this up. Are you now taking a stand against Bush and the fundies defending his treatment of "unlawful combatants"? They may call it "rendering" but that is a euphemism for torture... just as bad as neck slitting and all else.

I guess you just dismiss everything that has been shown about Islam's mistreatment of "infidels" throughout its long history, its enslavement of Christians, its subjudgation of Christians and Jews.

No, but I also recognize that there have also been long stretches where they protected both Xians and Jews, most specifically Jews from Xians. Also there has been mistreatment by Xians and Jews of muslims and many other religions and cultures. If taken in total, all three of you are like a macabre three stooges episode.

That you choose to emphasize the bloody aspects of certain sections of Islam, and downplay the same aspects of certain sections of Xianity and Judaism is telling.

I suppose you interpret all the killing of Christians going on in the world now as political.

Muslims are also being killed. So are Jews. So are Bhuddists. So are atheists. I care that all of these people are being killed. They all have many different factors because there are so many different perpetrators. I'm just not sure why you insist on lumping varieties of people into one group with one aim, and show a disproportionate concern for Jews and Xians getting killed when others are currently suffering much greater casualties.

Oh and you are qualified to determine what is a factual error

All your source did was state facts with no sources. You apparently believe their claim solely on the fact that they are ex-muslim? I will point out one factual error right now, the made the same fallacious claim you did above, by not recognizing that not all of Islam's history is filled with persecution of jews and indeed acted as protectors of them against Xian aggression. They also skipped over the fact that most greek knowledge was preserved by them against Xian attempts to destroy it. You show one factual source for their version of history and I'll show mine.

I do not care what legitimate grievances there may be, and I won't say there aren't any. The point is that NONE OF IT JUSTIFIES the way the Muslims have been dealing with Israel.

Ahem, the same can be said for Israeli treatment of muslims (and Xians by the way).

YOu cannot justify Hezbollah's insane shelling of Israel on any rational grounds whatever.

I didn't.

They put their civilians in harm's way so that israel will be held responsible

The Hezbollah does not have "their civilians", as they are a group and not a nation. You probably mean to say that they engage in activities such that military engagement against them is likely to result in civilian casualties (that is they blend in). Well it sure as hell is Israel's responsibility (and stupidity) if they fall for that trap then.

There are many ways to engage an enemy. The proper choice is the one that results in few civilian casualties, and only when necessary. There have been too many instances where this was clearly NOT the case in the recent invasion of Lebanon for you to claim they are making proper or legal military decisions.

Or let me pass this to you... can you show me why they must bomb Lebanon in the manner they have to achieve their aims, especially in light of the fact that they aren't achieving their aims and instead inflicting massive civilian casualties?

And above all you will not even touch the question of the Koran and religious motivations in all this murder and bad faith.

What is the relevance, particularly when you say you have no interest in discussing valid interpretations? How does addressing the Quran and religious motivation lead us to any possible solution to the problem?

I agree with Buzsaw that the UN resolutions are biased against them and permissive toward islamic terrorism.

Really? Give your reason for this. Use any resolution you want. Buz was so clueless about the UN he didn't even know Israel was a member, so I'm not sure why you think he'd be more knowledgable about the nature of UN resolutions or what they even address.

The reason force is necessary -- absolutely necessary

Note that you are responding to a statement of mine that explicitly agreed force is likely to be necessary, but its nature would have to be bounded... that is not all military action becomes legitimate just because force is required.

The whole western world, that is cowed by them, is taking this suicidal line

That didn't answer my question. You claim my position is suicidal. How will I be killed?

Israel would not be obliged to retaliate.

Why is Israel obliged to retaliate in a way that kills ten times more civilians than their enemy and indeed is barely making a dent in their enemy's forces?

I mean let's look at facts. Hezbollah has managed to kill almost as many Israeli soldiers as Israel has killed Hezbollah militants. I'm no super expert in military strategy but that is not called a winning strategy. That Israel is managing to hit 10 times the number of innocent people in the process as those they are aiming at makes it a pretty wreckless and stupid strategy.

Perhaps you can discuss your ideas on military strategy where that makes some sort of sense.

Their tactics should be condemned ABSOLUTELY

I absolutely condemned the illegitmate tactics used by Hezbollah. I am now consistently applying my criteria regarding legitimate conduct of military operations to Israel as well. Explain why that should not be done.

I realize Hezbollah targets civilians and Israel may not. There are more rules to warfare than no targeting of civilians. One might note again of course that in this case Hezbollah did not start by attacking civilians.

but Israel is simply defending itself.

I using grenades on a crowded street to defend yourself against an attacker justified? Explain.

crafty designs to make Israel look bad and kill as many Israelis as possible.

1) Many more times nonIsraelis have been killed than Israelis. If their goal was simply to kill Israelis Hezbollah is losing.
2) Why is Israel being so stupid as to fall for their trap? Why could they not be clever and employ methods which target their enemies better and avoid so many atrocities. If their intention is NOT to kill civilians, and defeat Hezbollah, they are losing.

I have tried to stay short and to the point. There were many to be addressed.

If you want to slim down the reply concentrate on why discussing the Quran and religion is important when you believe "true interpretation" doesn't matter, why we should believe religion is the guiding factor when there are diverse terrorist organizations with many different backgrounds and agendas, and why Israel is justified in using the FORM of force it has chosen when it appears so counterproductive and is in violation of int'l law regarding armed conflict.

That last one is pretty important. If terrorist group's tactics are what make them condemnable in an absolute sense, why does Israel get off the hook when their tactics are equally illegitimate?


holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 3:48 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:49 AM Silent H has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33332
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 259 of 300 (338213)
08-06-2006 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Jaderis
08-06-2006 6:49 AM


Re: You need to convince them, not me
Obviously I'm focused on the Koranic justifications for terrorism.

Period.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Jaderis, posted 08-06-2006 6:49 AM Jaderis has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 10:44 AM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 260 of 300 (338215)
08-06-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
08-06-2006 10:27 AM


Religion can be used.
Obviously I'm focused on the Koranic justifications for terrorism.

Period.

The Qur'an can be misused to justify violence just as we have seen the Bible misused to justify violence. In fact just recently the Bible has been used to justify what some people believe will be the most violent period in the Earth's history, the Great Rupture of ill repute and End Times. We saw right here on EvC a person who claims to be a Christian call for "... cleaning out a nest of vipers".

Holy Books like the Qur'an can be misused and religion historically has been a favored tool for swaying the masses and getting them to do things they would never consider were it not for religious fervor.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:27 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:59 AM jar has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33332
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 261 of 300 (338216)
08-06-2006 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Silent H
08-06-2006 6:10 AM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
That's interesting since much of my position is culled from purely conservative sources and in direct defiance of leftist positions. At the very least I have said that I support a continued presence in Iraq until a stable gov't is formed, which is diametrically opposed to liberal dogma on the issue.

This has nothing to do with rationalizing terrorism.

I also want you to put your money where your mouth is and show me one thing that I say that the terrorists say... or apologize for that odious and fallacious claim. You are the one claiming that they have the true interpretation "because Khomenei says so" which I have been bucking from the get go.

I am not claiming they have the true interpretation. I've said this over and over and over in the last few posts and this is getting very tiresome. I've said I believe their interpretation is *legitimate* but I've not said it is the *true/correct* interpretation. I've been careful not to. I've said IT DOESN'T MATTER which interpretation is the true or correct one. And you owe ME an apology for your misrepresentations and dragging me through these things I've already answered many times.

This whole argument that terrorism is provoked by Israel,

Show where I said that or apologize. I never had and never would say such a thing. Terrorism has many different roots and agendas.

Here you go:

www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1507&m=240#240 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1507&m=240#240">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1507&m=240#240
It was certainly provoked. Its response has changed its position from victim to victimizer,

If you dare to claim that isn't what you are saying there, I answer that I KNOW you were answering MY insistence that Hezbollah's actions were not provoked, or any terrorist actions against Israel, and I will ignore any such claim you try to make to expand the context.

My whole point is that NO TERRORISM IS PROVOKED. NONE. In the case of Israel it does not matter what the past is, there is NO JUSTIFICATION FOR TERRORISM and when you offer historical reasons why they might be provoked you are justifying terrorism.

NO. Israel's actions are defensive and justifiable in this action against Hezbollah and in all their military actions in the last few decades. Victim is defined by being on the defensive. As I said.

Hezbollah's and all terrorist actions are aggressive, hate-driven, revenge-driven, ideology-driven, duplicitous, staged to put Israel in the wrong and absolutely criminal in nature, and there is not one iota of justification for them, and there should not be one iota of tolerance for them by anybody, and referring to supposed provocations is doing nothing but justifying them.

That is my position and I will not even listen to further arguments against this.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 6:10 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 11:25 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33332
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 262 of 300 (338218)
08-06-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Silent H
08-06-2006 7:39 AM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
That last one is pretty important. If terrorist group's tactics are what make them condemnable in an absolute sense, why does Israel get off the hook when their tactics are equally illegitimate?

They are not equally illegitimate. They are done in self defense to knock out the enemy's ability to do them harm, and I refuse to hear one more word about how they are illegitimate.

Holmes you are doing nothing but repeating the stuff I have answered and it is all irrelevant. I will not go down that path again.

My previous five or six posts say all I have to say and the last one boils it down to its essence. Have a good day.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 7:39 AM Silent H has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 11:31 AM Faith has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33332
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 263 of 300 (338221)
08-06-2006 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
08-06-2006 10:44 AM


Re: Religion can be used.
I don't care how the Koran is being used or misused. The point is that it IS used to justify terrorism, which means that there will never be an end to terrorism because it is ideology-driven, motivated by implacable hatred for Israel and all nonMuslims, which further means that they will never negotiate a real peace and must always be regarded as dangerous, to be dealt with by force when they get too much ability to do harm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 10:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 11:06 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 264 of 300 (338223)
08-06-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Faith
08-06-2006 10:59 AM


Re: Religion can be used.
I don't care how the Koran is being used or misused. The point is that it IS used to justify terrorism, which means that there will never be an end to terrorism because it is ideology-driven, motivated by implacable hatred for Israel and all nonMuslims, which further means that they will never negotiate a real peace and must always be regarded as dangerous, to be dealt with by force when they get too much ability to do harm.

Why does the fact that a Holy Text is misused to further some aim mean that the act is ideology-driven?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:59 AM Faith has not yet responded

Silent H
Member (Idle past 4108 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 265 of 300 (338226)
08-06-2006 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
08-06-2006 10:45 AM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
This has nothing to do with rationalizing terrorism.

I was not rationalizing terrorism. You claimed my position was patently leftist, and I explained how it wasn't. How can I be rationalizing terrorism when I was and still am for the war in Afghanistan, for keeping the troops in Iraq now that they are there to make sure a stable gov't emerges to defeat the terrorist elements now enjoying a free hand there, and agree that Israel had a right to react against Hezbollah?

I am not claiming they have the true interpretation. I've said this over and over and over in the last few posts and this is getting very tiresome. I've said I believe their interpretation is *legitimate* but I've not said it is the *true/correct* interpretation.

Once again, you have said that the warlike interpretations are THOROUGHLY supported, which is different than "legitimate". You have also stated that people who maintain a peaceful interpretation CANNOT because of what terrorists and certain ex-muslims have said about Islam. So you can dance around semantically all you want, what you are implying is quite clear.

Here, let's try this simple thing. Can you agree that while some within Islam are capable of building a warlike interpretation of the Quran from portions of that text and historical references, others are equally able to build a peaceful interpretation of the Quran from portions of that text and historical references, and that ultimately there is no single correct literal interpretation of that text nor mandates regarding the use of violence for that faith?

Here you go: www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1507&m=240#240 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1507&m=240#240">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=14&t=1507&m=240#240
It was certainly provoked. Its response has changed its position from victim to victimizer,

If you dare to claim that isn't what you are saying there, I answer that I KNOW you were answering MY insistence that Hezbollah's actions were not provoked, or any terrorist actions against Israel, and I will ignore any such claim you try to make to expand the context.

Can you read Faith? Take a look at that quote in yellow. IT was certainly provoked. ITS response has changed its position from victim to victimizer. The quote makes NO sense if IT refers to Hezbollah. IT refers to Israel and I am clearly stating that it was provoked. I think I have mentioned several times over many posts that I totally agree that Hezbollah provoked a response from Israel, and Israel was justified in responding with force. The whole point of my argument is that it was the nature of ITS response which dictates that it is doing wrong... not that it responded.

In the case of Israel it does not matter what the past is, there is NO JUSTIFICATION FOR TERRORISM and when you offer historical reasons why they might be provoked you are justifying terrorism.

I am not justifying terrorism, I am explaining to you why some feel it is justified for reasons beyond religious and political dogma. Your argument has so far been that religion is the basis, I am telling you it is not always related to religion.

The concept of an eye for an eye revenge as justice is found throughout monotheist doctrines and so when people feel wronged they often seek revenge regardless of the practical costs. I don't agree with that tactic, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend it doesn't exist.

And despite all of your pronouncements against terrorism, zionists engaged in terrorism against Britain and Arabs to get Israel formed, and have engaged in terrorist acts to this day. Heck shortly after 911 it was discovered that the JDL was engaged in a plot to bomb mosques and kill a US congressman. Its in the news and a matter of public record. Yes there IS NO JUSTIFICATION, but they all do it and feel it is justified and its not all based in religion.

Israel's actions are defensive and justifiable in this action against Hezbollah and in all their military actions in the last few decades.

Well that assertion sure was easy. If you don't care to explain your position on moral or legal issues, at the very least I would like to see an argument for why it is justified tactically.

Despite being better armed than Hezbollah, with vastly superior technology, and in far greater numbers, the Israelis have lost pretty much one soldier for every militant they kill, while at the same time taking out 10 innocent civilians and causing a mass refugee crises. Even a nonexpert can do the math and see that the methodology is NOT WORKING.

Under what scheme do you consider this advisable, other than doing any violence is good, analysis of results be damned?


holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:45 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 4108 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 266 of 300 (338228)
08-06-2006 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
08-06-2006 10:49 AM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
They are not equally illegitimate. They are done in self defense to knock out the enemy's ability to do them harm, and I refuse to hear one more word about how they are illegitimate.

Hey, illegal is illegal. That the initial attacker commits an illegal act does not allow for you to commit illegal acts (even if different ones). And yes they are all illegitimate.

That you will not listen will not change that fact logically, morally, legally, or practically.

Have a good day.

Bye bye.


holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 10:49 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 12:52 PM Silent H has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 33332
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 267 of 300 (338235)
08-06-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Silent H
08-06-2006 11:31 AM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
Israel has done nothing illegal or illegitimate in its defensive attack on Hezbollah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Silent H, posted 08-06-2006 11:31 AM Silent H has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 12:55 PM Faith has responded
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 08-06-2006 1:07 PM Faith has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31506
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 268 of 300 (338236)
08-06-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Faith
08-06-2006 12:52 PM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
If the US bombed Quebec do you think it might be considered illegal?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 12:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 1:11 PM jar has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17439
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 269 of 300 (338240)
08-06-2006 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by Faith
08-06-2006 12:52 PM


Faith writes:

... defensive attack....

Oxymoron? Or Freudian slip?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 12:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 1:12 PM ringo has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33332
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 270 of 300 (338241)
08-06-2006 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by jar
08-06-2006 12:55 PM


Re: Again the much-vilified truth about Islamic terrorism
If the US bombed Quebec do you think it might be considered illegal?

Not if Quebec was hosting terrorists who were bombing us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 12:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 1:19 PM Faith has responded

  
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