Haggard Scandal

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A Christian turns (I suspect) out to be a sinner. Big deal...

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The thing is, iano, that these are the same people who presume to be morally superior to everyone who doesn't share their religious views.These are the same people who feel completely justified, due to the above-mentioned sense of superiority, actively working to get their particular take on morality written into the laws of the US.This scenario has been played out over and over again, mostly with holier-than-thou-acting conservative Republicans.

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Sin is sin no matter who commits it, and in general Christians are quite ready to confess our sins, the same sins the Bible condemns, that we are always warning everybody else about.

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Well then, why did Rev Haggerd "confess" only when he was forced to?Why do these "confessions" only come out when they are caught, not before?

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Thing is, oh prettiest one, we all hold up a front behind which we hide our stuff.

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Sure.But I don't try to make everybody else abide by a moral code, under force of law.I'm not criticizing these people for hiding that they are gay drug abusers, or for running up large gambling debts, or for defrauding their church supporters, etc., etc., etc.It's the deep, deep hypocrisy that I criticize them for. Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

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Yes, golf clubs like rubber. Walls made of everflowing liquid, floors that won't stay flat, that ripple into waves, mound up and dip down into wells, that you have to crawl across because you can't stand up on them, air that is really thick multicolored gelatin that swirls around anything moving through it, in which a liquid forming-and-reforming face might appear without its body, inquiring as to your state of mind, to which you can only inanely and insanely laugh, and then disappear again into the colors, light bulbs that shoot crystalline light patterns in all directions, quite beautiful though, somebody's heart sitting on a windowsill beating away and then suddenly exploding, everything looking pink and green for days, and neon signs burning an unearthly electric blue for years afterward.

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...feeling like you are able to talk to God and that you are hearing everything He says...It's amazing what sorts of things the brain can manufacture given the right stimulous, isn't it?

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I don't think you know what the word means.

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Which word?

The point is, Faith, that the brain doesn't need LSD to manufacture strange, odd, or completely false sensations, perceptions, and conclusions.It does that, all by itself, every day.

If your way is supposed to be morally so much better, then why does it seem to produce so very many scandals involving, frankly, despicable moral behavior?It's the constant supposed "God-endorsed" condemnation and judgement of others that I simply cannot abide, Faith.You are filled with compassion for this meth-snorting, gay prostitute-visiting, adultereous hypocrite, but you have the hardest of hearts for nearly everyone else if they do not share your right-wing Christian beliefs.Do you think that you social conservatives will ever learn the lesson of "There but by the grace of God, go I"?

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All the more reason not to trust it or that of any other person.

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Right, especially not when my brain is telling me the walls are melting or that voices are talking to me in my head.That's why the scientific method is so useful.The personal testimony of any single person is not testable evidence.

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No ones perfect.

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Right.And the moment the Christian Right wingers start treating others like they realize this, I will stop criticizing them.

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By the way: the most shameful thing that you have ever done in your life? What was that?

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I voted for a Republican once.

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You know, I've done everything from coke to LSD. I've also solicited sex from prostitutes on numerous occasions. Pretty bad stuff. Of course, that was all in my past and prior to meeting my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

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You know, I've never done any of that crazy, self-destructive, dangerous shit that you, Iano, and Faith did.I've never smoked tobacco, nor pot, and I've never even had a hangover.Never had unprotected sex (Really. Not ever, not even once), waited until I was in love and in a long-term relationship to engage in sex.Never saw the need to or attraction of endangering myself.I can certainly understand why all of you might be attracted to some kind of an imposition of a strict moral code if you were dissatisfied with the paths your lives had taken. I can also readily imagine the attraction of the idea of having all of your past debauchery expunged from the records, so to speak.All of you social conservatives, wagging your fingers at the rest of us, lecturing us on the proper way to live, and yet you three seem to have already done more wild, illegal stuff than all of my supposedly "loose-moraled liberal" friends and aquaintences put together.

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Earlier you correctly saw the root of all sin as pride. You denounce pride here. Do you engage in it yourself (ie: do you sin)?

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I don't believe in "sin" in the religious sense.I am full of faults that I do my best to improve upon every day.

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You and I know that that is not the most shameful thing you have done. C'mon Schraf... fess up.

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The thing that you are most ashamed of.

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Why do you suppose that this is any of your business, or something I would choose to publish on the internet?On the other hand, if I was a national leader, actively compaigning against what I and my group consider to be Shameful Act X, you would have every right to question me regarding my participation in Shameful Act X, and be outraged if I was caught engaging in Shameful Act X.You quite justifiably could conclude that I was a hypocrite.

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No its not. But Faith and me and millions of others testify. The testimony of millions doesn't count either I take it.

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Millions of people believe in astrology, too.Millions of people, at one time, also believed that Saddam Hussein was responsible for the planes that were flown into the WTC.Millions of people, more people than believe in your religion, believe in the godless teachings of Buddhism.Does this mean that astrology is true, that there actually is firm evidence that Saddam Hussein ordered the WTC bombings, and that Buddhism is the One True Religion?

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I'm also not sure that it's right to call it hypocrisy either to preach against a sin he himself fell into, especially if it was a first-time fall.

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I guess, then, that you have made your own special definition of the word, Faith.Using your definition, I suppose it means that when Rush Limbaugh, after stating many times that drug addicts should be locked up and we should throw away the key, isn't actually a hypocrite for seeking treatment instead of demanding that the state imprison him for the rest of his life?Do you think that Haggert just "accidentally" visited a male prostitude repeatedly over the course of three years? Do you think that he had no awareness of the fact that he was leading this secret gay lifestyle while simultaneously actively campaigning to put in place a national policy that was very anti-gay?I mean, I just don't know what could be more hypocritical.Well, maybe Foley.Or the Bush's one-time advisor and important FDA Committee member on reproductive health, Dr. W. David Hager, OB/GYN, also an Evangelical Christian and moralizer on sexual matters. He analy raped his narcoleptic wife, repeatedly, until she divorced him.There are many more.

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NOBODY has been "wagging any fingers." We tell you what God's law says, for your own good. Your morally careful life is not going to save you. God's windmills grind exceeding fine and sin is something we all habitually commit in our hearts all the time. It's not just the gross stuff we will be judged on.

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ROTFLMAO!!!!!"It's for your own good, and if you don't do what we say, you're going to burn in hell!"Faith, that is a perfect example of you "wagging your finger at me", admonishing me to shape up or else.It's funny enough to use as a sig file.