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Author | Topic: Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions. | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
You need to read Matthew 25. Read it slowly about seven times.
You ARE NOT a christian. You do NOT believe in the same Jesus that I believe in. Your Jesus probably didn't die for our sins. My Jesus DID! You are likely right that we have different views of Jesus. The idea of GOD requiring that He become Man and then killed as some sacrifice to GOD is just plain silly. The Great Sacrifice was GOD becoming man, just man, same as you, same as me. Those born die. Sorry, that is a fact of life. Jesus message is that All are born forgiven. None are born with Damned stamped on their foreheads. All men, believers and non-believers alike will be judged, judged based on their lives. You should also reread John 3, because it does not say what you claim. Read it about seven times. I'm sure you are a Christian, I have no reason to doubt that. Hopefully one day you will learn what it is all about. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
You are likely right that we have different views of Jesus. The idea of GOD requiring that He become Man and then killed as some sacrifice to GOD is just plain silly. The Great Sacrifice was GOD becoming man, just man, same as you, same as me. Those born die. Sorry, that is a fact of life. Jesus message is that All are born forgiven. None are born with Damned stamped on their foreheads. All men, believers and non-believers alike will be judged, judged based on their lives. You should also reread John 3, because it does not say what you claim. Read it about seven times. I'm sure you are a Christian, I have no reason to doubt that. Hopefully one day you will learn what it is all about. This is what John 3:16 to 3:18 says:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. Clearly, as you can see, anyone who believes is not codemned but anyone who does not believe is condemned. Now considering that the bible does not contradict itself, we must conclude that mathew does not mean what you think it means and needs to be interpreted differently. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Keep reading. The condemnation has to do with behavior.
See, that is the problem with so many Christians, they don't read the manual. In addition, in Matthew we see Jesus speaking directly, not some editorial as in John 3. And there is no mention of belief in the story of the sheep and goats. Just the opposite, it implies that it will be the believers who are the GOATS, the Christians, and that the non-followers, the unbelievers that will be the sheep. If you like, I have discussed this at length this thread. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
Keep reading. The condemnation has to do with behavior. See, that is the problem with so many Christians, they don't read the manual. In addition, in Matthew we see Jesus speaking directly, not some editorial as in John 3. And there is no mention of belief in the story of the sheep and goats. Just the opposite, it implies that it will be the believers who are the GOATS, the Christians, and that the non-followers, the unbelievers that will be the sheep. The condemnation merely says that people who do evil deeds will likely not believe. It says that because their deeds were evil, they chose not to come into the light. It's that simple. If Matthew truly says that salvation is based on works, than the bible contradicts itself. Since I don't believe the bible contradicts itself, and since I know what John 3 says, I must conclude that Matthew 25 must be interpreted differently.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Since I don't believe the bible contradicts itself, and since I know what John 3 says, I must conclude that Matthew 25 must be interpreted differently. That's fine. Or, of course, John must conform to Mat 25. After all, In Mat Jesus himself is speaking as opposed to the editorial of John. LOL But I don't worship the Bible. I know that it does say contradictory things. It is the Word of God, inspired, but written, redacted, edited, revised, compiled by men. I don't worship it, and also don't try to make it say things it doesn't. Enjoy your version of the Gospel. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5223 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
iBibleNano,
OK, first, we must define the difference betweeen forknowledge and predestination: Forknowledge - Knowing in advance what will happen. (No effect produced)Predistination - Bringing about a future event. (An effect is produced) Forknowledge does not create an effect, therefore it cannot be predestination. To say, "God knows in advance what will happen, therefore it will happen, therefore we can't change it" is just as valid as saying, "Whatever will happen will happen, therefore it will happen, therefore we can't change it." We must either accept determinism reguardless of the existance of God, or reject both of these arguments. You are just trying to define the problem away by making predestination something that must be intentionally designed. It won't work, I'll make the same argument without recourse to predestination. Premise: God is omniscient & knows everything before it happens. Inference: God's omniscience means that when I am presented with an apparent choice when only one option actually exists. Conclusion: No actual options actually being available means free will cannot be exercised. That other options appear to exist is illusory. Try again. Mark There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
iBibleNano
Forknowledge - Knowing in advance what will happen. (No effect produced) Predistination - Bringing about a future event. (An effect is produced) If forknowledge is certain then the event that it forsees must come to pass and thus indeed become an effect. Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
If forknowledge is certain then the event that it forsees must come to pass and thus indeed become an effect. Any event that will come to pass will come to pass, therefore we can't change it. Is that not an effect in itself? Yet we still have free will. So the predestination and forknowledge thing doesn't work out. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
You are just trying to define the problem away by making predestination something that must be intentionally designed. It won't work, I'll make the same argument without recourse to predestination. Premise: God is omniscient & knows everything before it happens. Inference: God's omniscience means that when I am presented with an apparent choice when only one option actually exists. Conclusion: No actual options actually being available means free will cannot be exercised. That other options appear to exist is illusory. Try again. Mark 1. God is omniscient and knows everything before it happens.2. A person has many choices to chose from but God knows what choice he will chose. 3. Considering that he COULD have chosen any one of those, even though God knew he would chose the one he did, and he did, that means he has free will.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
iBibleNano
Any event that will come to pass will come to pass, therefore we can't change it. Is that not an effect in itself? Yet we still have free will. But if the future event must come to pass in order for forknowledge to exist then we cannot avoid what that forknowledge represents and thus cannot avoid it by exercise of free will
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
But if the future event must come to pass in order for forknowledge to exist then we cannot avoid what that forknowledge represents and thus cannot avoid it by exercise of free will Whether we can avoid it or not is irrelevant because we do not know our own future. So even though a being knows what we will do, we still have freedom of choice because we are not aware of what choice we will make. If we were to know what that choice would be, and were still unable to change it, then there would be no free will. Edited by iBibleNano, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Whether we can avoid it or not is irrelevant because we do not know our own future. So even though a being knows what we will do, we still have freedom of choice because we are not aware of what choice we will make. If we were to know what that choice would be, and were still unable to change it, then there would be no free will. You are confusing ignorance and choice. If what we will choose is foreknown, then we really have no free will. We may well be ignorant of which choice we will make but that is just ignorance, no more. If God knows what the outcome will be, if knowing that God creates man that will be damned, then that God is nothing but evil. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
You are confusing ignorance and choice. If what we will choose is foreknown, then we really have no free will. We may well be ignorant of which choice we will make but that is just ignorance, no more. If God knows what the outcome will be, if knowing that God creates man that will be damned, then that God is nothing but evil. Nope. Reguardless of whether or not some entity knows our future our choices will still be ours So it really doesn't matter. Will our choices change if God knows them? Of course not. How can simply knowing the future affect it? It's the future that affects the knowledge. Not the other way around.
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Legend Member (Idle past 5034 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Reguardless of whether or not some entity knows our future our choices will still be ours. so, if God knows that I'm going to choose X, is there any chance that I'm going to choose something other than X ? "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."
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Christian7 Member (Idle past 276 days) Posts: 628 From: n/a Joined: |
so, if God knows that I'm going to choose X, is there any chance that I'm going to choose something other than X ? You don't seem to understand something. You don't chose X because God knows you will chose X. God knows you will chose X because you will chose X. You have the freedom of choice to chose X or Y. If you were to chose X, God would know about it. If you were to chose Y, God would know about it. But the choice is still yours.
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