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Author Topic:   Morality Decreasing With Time?
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 181 of 305 (371920)
12-24-2006 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
12-21-2006 12:16 PM


Re: On Absolutes
Fine. So present an example of an Absolute Truth that we can examine.

Isn't it interesting that Pilot asked the same question to Jesus about two thousand years ago?

John 18:37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." 38 "What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him.

No one can tell you jar... but even so, I will.

An absolute is that which is unchanging. By definition, God is the only absolute.

It's reality. It's the way things are meant to be. It is purpose, meaning, and origin. All that was revealed in the life of Christ.

Not the kind of answer that will satisfy your taunt, but the answer nonetheless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 12-21-2006 12:16 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by sidelined, posted 12-24-2006 2:09 AM Rob has responded
 Message 183 by ReverendDG, posted 12-24-2006 2:57 AM Rob has responded
 Message 185 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2006 3:17 AM Rob has responded
 Message 193 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-24-2006 10:41 AM Rob has responded
 Message 199 by jar, posted 12-24-2006 11:21 AM Rob has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 305 (371925)
12-24-2006 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Rob
12-24-2006 1:49 AM


Re: On Absolutes
scottness

An absolute is that which is unchanging. By definition, God is the only absolute.

That is a conjecture not a definition. You assert that God is unchanging but you can in no way demonstrate that a God exists much less that he is absolute


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:49 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:41 AM sidelined has responded

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 2220 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 183 of 305 (371928)
12-24-2006 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Rob
12-24-2006 1:49 AM


Re: On Absolutes
An absolute is that which is unchanging. By definition, God is the only absolute.

i guess you ignore all the parts in the bible where god changes his mind then?
like umm the flood?
he regrets flooding the earth, if he was unchanging why would he care since man disobayed him?

god does change, he changes according to what is written about him, or do you ignore the fact that he is really different from genesis to exodus to zecheria to isaiah to psalms to matthew, to john, to paul?, to revelations?

the fact is we know next to nothing about god, we can't claim he is never changing, infact before they wrote down he never changed, he did!

It's reality. It's the way things are meant to be. It is purpose, meaning, and origin. All that was revealed in the life of Christ.

maybe your reality, you already believe this, i don't see it in the OT or NT, you do because you already believe he never changes

Not the kind of answer that will satisfy your taunt, but the answer nonetheless.

this is no answer, you can't speak for god anymore than the bible can, there no evidence god doesn't change in the bible to begin with

theres a damn well lot of change from the genesis god to the exodus god, i have found, and between the genesis god and the relevelation god by a long shot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:49 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:35 AM ReverendDG has not yet responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 184 of 305 (371929)
12-24-2006 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
12-16-2006 7:13 PM


quote:
Even warfare and genocide, while consuming vast numbers of people under Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, is less a threat overall today than in the past if one takes into account the percentage of the world’s population, rather than the raw number of people actually killed. For those unfamiliar with history, this is particularly true in the case of the Thirty Year War between Protestants and Catholics which is believed to have reduced the population of Germany in half, or in the depredations of Atila, Gengis Khan, or of colonialism. In the case of the latter, the Congo saw its population halved under the stewardship of Belgium’s Leopold II, and the Americas saw the reduction of the indigenous population by war and disease to less than 10% its former number.

To say that the "morality" of mankind has become reduced or has increased is absurd. Mankind is a history of individuals who dwell in mediocrity, monetary worth, and primitive workings. There are few areas within all of our history which stand to mark a life that was worthwhile. They stand in the minds of men like Socrates. This discussion as far as I can see is not one of much thought as the human condition directs us to an obvious answer. The majority of humans who have lived throughout history were men who lived for unworthy causes and possibly survival. Of course exceptions are among us.

To judge morality and its motion in regards to humans we must look at humans and their nature. We can see that whatever findings on the relationship between humanity and their choices we are looking at a constant; a set relationship of human morality. As humans are one thing: HUMANITY or MANKIND, the morality of HUMANS does not increase or decrease but rather stays the same throughout all of this one constant called MANKIND. How are you to judge or refute my claim? Cite examples from history to examine the human condition and you will find a science of repetition and redundancy, of mediocrity and crime. We are looking at a constant, a constant cannot change, mankind cannot change as it is what it is, humans. Humanity cannot transform into another life form or object, it is judged on the entire group and history of humans. This discussion is therefore absurd because of the consistency of human nature which is directly observable.

To all the Sophists who insist on saying that morality is subjective: You prefer a lifestyle which requires no thought.

Sophism (saying that subjectivity is in all forms of thought pertaining to ideas and understanding) produces the inability for any semblance of truth to be attained. A perfect model or ABSOLUTE exists which defines every idea; we strive for this perfect model in all of our action for knowledge and truth, without it we have no reason to understand, acquire knowledge, search for truth, and therefore LIVE as a human being who can reason and think.

SOPHISM IS DEAD, Plato killed it.

Stop saying that what is moral is subjective. Morality is not subjective.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 12-16-2006 7:13 PM anglagard has not yet responded

joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 185 of 305 (371931)
12-24-2006 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Rob
12-24-2006 1:49 AM


Re: On Absolutes
quote:
An absolute is that which is unchanging. By definition, God is the only absolute.

Absolutes are perfect unchanging models for which all things are accounted for. There is a perfect cat, a perfect definition for justice, etc... God is the holder of these absolutes, we cannot completely and truthfully answer with perfection the answers to questions pertaining to absolutes such as "What is truth" but we can "lead an examined life" and spend our lives in finding the answers. And then when we die we can know the answers. Because then we go to heaven and Jesus will smile at me and tell me everything I ever wanted to know and how the universe works. RIGHT??

That is what heaven is right? When we die the answers are shown to us right?

HHAHAAHA HOW ABSURD THIS WHOLE SITUATION IS, WHAT A CREATOR, THANK YOU GOD, THANK YOU.

We ate the fruit so now we can spend our lives with this imperfection and endless search, isn't it meaningless, we already know that we are limited in our abilities to reason and understand.

WHAT IS THIS!?!??!??!

I TELL YOU OF THESE ABSOLUTES FOR WHICH I LIVE MY LIFE FOR RIGHT?

BUT IT ISN'T A WORTHLESS PURSUIT, I WISH I WAS JUST A PRIMITIVE ANIMAL WITHOUT REASON AND MEMORY. AT LEAST THEN I WOULDN'T BE PRESENTED WITH THIS GODLINESS.

THANK YOU GOD!!!!!!!!!!!

wowoow whahhaa wow

Edited by prophex, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:49 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by ringo, posted 12-24-2006 3:41 AM joshua221 has not yet responded
 Message 190 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:29 AM joshua221 has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 16362
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 186 of 305 (371937)
12-24-2006 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by joshua221
12-24-2006 3:17 AM


Re: On Absolutes
prophex writes:

Absolutes are perfect unchanging models for which all things are accounted for. There is a perfect cat, a perfect definition for justice, etc...

Those are ideals, not absolutes.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2006 3:17 AM joshua221 has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 305 (371959)
12-24-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
12-23-2006 7:19 PM


Re: Communication and Morality
jar writes:

But so far no one has shown any examples of declining morality. In fact the only examples presented so far show that morality is increasing.

1. Global terrorism against innocent victims (crime) on the increase.
2. Theft increase.
3. Deviant sex practices traditional among most cultures on increase.
4. Global youth gang crime on increase.
5. Morality in government on decline including political corruption et al.
6. Drug usage and related moral/crime problems.
7. Corporate crime on increase.
8. Identity theft and security breach due to technology becoming major global problem.
9. Internet crimes, porn, et al corrupting youth, churchmen and other.

jar writes:

During Old Testament times slavery was moral. Today it is seen as immoral.

Though we modern Christians abhor slavery, most cultures of human history did not see this as immoral including Judiasm. Islam and other culotures/religions still don't regard it as immoral.

jar writes:

During New Testament times, stoning people was moral. Today it is considered immoral.

This is not an example of declining morals as per topic. This is simply a cultural matter regarding modes of capital punishment. It did have some benefits in crime deterant et al.

jar writes:

During the period of Manifest Destiny it was considered moral for the United States to simply take other nations territory by conquest. Today it is considered immoral.

Throughout human history, peoples and cultures have had wars, migration et al. This is not a matter of morality perse. It is relative to many factors in national and human matters.

jar writes:

Every indicator is that morality is increasing, not decreasing.

You have thus far failed to substantiate this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 12-23-2006 7:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by RickJB, posted 12-24-2006 10:01 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 198 by jar, posted 12-24-2006 11:15 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 245 by anglagard, posted 12-25-2006 1:34 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 305 (371961)
12-24-2006 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by ringo
12-23-2006 7:39 PM


Re: Communication and Morality
I see no problem with what you are saying. However, I don't see your comments as substantiating any position as to whether global/human morality is on the decrease.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 12-23-2006 7:39 PM ringo has not yet responded

RickJB
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


Message 189 of 305 (371966)
12-24-2006 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Buzsaw
12-24-2006 9:33 AM


Re: Communication and Morality
Buz writes:

1. Global terrorism against innocent victims (crime) on the increase.
2. Theft increase.
3. Deviant sex practices traditional among most cultures on increase.
4. Global youth gang crime on increase.
5. Morality in government on decline including political corruption et al.
6. Drug usage and related moral/crime problems.
7. Corporate crime on increase.
8. Identity theft and security breach due to technology becoming major global problem.
9. Internet crimes, porn, et al corrupting youth, churchmen and other.

I see you've padded your list out with ill-defined concepts such as "global youth gang crime".

In any case, the things you highlight have, in one form or another, been with human society thoughout history. Just grab a history book from any era of your choice.

Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.

Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Buzsaw, posted 12-24-2006 9:33 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Buzsaw, posted 12-24-2006 10:58 PM RickJB has not yet responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 190 of 305 (371974)
12-24-2006 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by joshua221
12-24-2006 3:17 AM


Re: On Absolutes
We ate the fruit so now we can spend our lives with this imperfection and endless search, isn't it meaningless, we already know that we are limited in our abilities to reason and understand.

We are limited in our ability to understand because only god can fullly understand. Only He knows the information you need (and you don't need it all). Knowledge is power, and power must be balanced with justice and mercy (morality) or hell breaks loose.

He made it clear that He will open our eyes if we give our lives back to Him. He did this by coming into time. He gave the emperical evidence you demand and you still choose not to believe.

Your like a blind man who was approached by many doctors offering to take you to a specialist who can heal you. And time and again you said, "How do I know you're a doctor when I can't see your degree?"

You'll just have to trust someone...

ps to mods... for some reason, my replies are not being mailed to me. I just happened to find this reply because I was looking in the thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2006 3:17 AM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2006 10:35 AM Rob has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 191 of 305 (371975)
12-24-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by ReverendDG
12-24-2006 2:57 AM


Re: On Absolutes
this is no answer, you can't speak for god anymore than the bible can, there no evidence god doesn't change in the bible to begin with

There is tons of evidence, though admitedly I don't think Spirit can be measured in tons. That would be a hard conversion to muster!

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ReverendDG, posted 12-24-2006 2:57 AM ReverendDG has not yet responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 192 of 305 (371976)
12-24-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Rob
12-24-2006 10:29 AM


Re: On Absolutes
No, I'm a Christian.

I don't know what about my post made it look like I wasn't.

Trying to make sense out of this argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:29 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 11:09 AM joshua221 has not yet responded

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1708 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 193 of 305 (371978)
12-24-2006 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Rob
12-24-2006 1:49 AM


Re: On Absolutes
By definition, God is the only absolute.

And because the one true god is Marduk, Marduk is the only absolute.

__


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:49 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 11:04 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 194 of 305 (371979)
12-24-2006 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by sidelined
12-24-2006 2:09 AM


Re: On Absolutes
You assert that God is unchanging but you can in no way demonstrate that a God exists much less that he is absolute

Your statement is not absolute Sidelined...

I can demonstrate that He exists by laying down my life for Him.

You just think it's foolish in terms of human understanding. Well I agree! But I also think it is foolish to make absolute statements while denying that absolute exist.

Absolutes do exist! His name is the first and the last. The alpha and omega. Emanuel (God with us). Jesus!

I only profess it because I've met Him. He came to me when I cryed out to Him. That is how I know... not because I foolishly believe something I've never seen.

That's why Frued had to dismiss it as delusion. Because you cannot argue with someone elses experience.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by sidelined, posted 12-24-2006 2:09 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by sidelined, posted 12-24-2006 11:10 AM Rob has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3959 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 195 of 305 (371982)
12-24-2006 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by Archer Opteryx
12-24-2006 10:41 AM


Re: On Absolutes
And because the one true god is Marduk, Marduk is the only absolute.

Well it's logical :laugh:

I think that we need more than just logic to come to proper conclusions.

Logical consistency is essential, but as you show so well, it is not the only test for truth.

What about 'emperical adequacy'? that is also needed! But it is not alone the only truth test. Most combine it with logic and TADA!... a naturalist is born.

But when you conbine logical consistency with emperical adequacy, and then add 'experential relevance' (or the existential), then you've mixed morality into the whole mixture.

There are other truth tests...

1.'Undeniability': If as a Buddhist, I deny that I exist; then in denying it, I actually affirm it at the same time.

2. 'Unaffirmability': If I say I cannot speak a word of English, I cannot affirm it at the same time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Archer Opteryx, posted 12-24-2006 10:41 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by fallacycop, posted 12-24-2006 12:26 PM Rob has responded

  
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