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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Perceptions of Reality | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Archer:
Make a point, Rob, if you have one. Now is the time. I'll do my best... It's like this; you spoke of reality and truth in your last post as though it is inarguable and absolute. Where do you see it? Every example you can give is relative. The only place we can find an absolute is in the moral law. But when I speak of morality as absolute, you'd think I uttered the most sinful and insulting words imaginable judging by the way you guys tend to recoil. You've glorified and exalted the emperical (physical) world so high, that you have completely missed the fact that all things physical are relative. So what can we believe? The Bible discusses this plainly. By worshipping the creation and looking to it for truth, you have lost sight of what is ultimately real. Jesus said it more clearly (and offensively to you) than I ever did, 'Heaven and earth will pass away, but my Word will never pass away.' The reason we look to creation for truth, is that we assume ourselves to be the final authority and measure of all things. The Enlightenment Spirit is still with us. This is curious, since we admit rationally (Descartes), that we cannot know from our 'relative' perspective. Enter now Emannuel Kant, and abracadabra... belief in God is totally a leap of faith. So what do we do in response? We take David Hume and conclude that the only thing real is the material. The facts are the facts, and that is what reality is... Problem: The fact is... everyone dies. That is reality and that is life! What again is reality and life? It is death! That is the absolute. Why are we trying to stop that? And why do we see it as bad? If... it is just a fact! Counterperspective: John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" Archer:The paramount problem is that he wants to sacrifice reality and all inquiries into it on the altar of (his idea of) morality. Seriously... what you just described sounds like 'the cross' to me. Mankind sacrificing absolute morality and truth at the alter of relativity. Archer:On what rational basis can anyone make such a demand? How can truth--reality--occupy an inferior position to anything else? Outside reality nothing is real. By definition. And how can morality take an inferior position? You see reality through the lens of your personal morality Archer. In our minds, we are God. And God is a threat to our kingdom. That's why we crucified Him. It's an alien invasion. The perfect analogy... God comes not in some hokey pokey space ship that is actually technologically inferior, but in the most sophisticated 'vessel' in the known universe. He says clearly and plainly that His kingdom is not of this world. He shows His true glory and nature durring the transfiguration (Which btw terrifies his disciples), and He says, 'be not afraid'. We then kill Him for daring to question our authority and trying to change our culture and traditions. And He raises from the dead, tells us to go and tell everyone who will listen, and promises to return. No modern sci-fi can compete. Their all artificial copies of the reality.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Anglagard:
Rob, if reality is subjective how do you know morality is absolute, after all under your logic all of your experiences, even driving your truck, going to church, or even reading the Bible may not be 'real.' But reality is not subjective. Our delusions are subjective. Reality by definition is objective. One's perception of reality is not equal to reality. Reality is what it is. One way I know morality is absolute is when someone sprinkles my conscious, it resonates at a palpable level. It may not be rational in terms that can be expressed mathematically to our complete satisfaction. But I do believe that when someone tries to reason with me, and remind me that I am in 'the wrong' about some selfish ambition of my own, that they are right. In fact, my wife is looking over my shoulder right now to remind me that our son has 'tee ball' pictures this morning, and that my attention to this forum is at the moment selfish if not put into proper perspective. She is right... and I concede that to her now. Goodbye...
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Ringo:
But "two's" perception is more likely to be real than "one's". Two wrongs don't make a right. But if what you say is true, then abortion is wrong and same sex marriage is an atrocity! What do you think now? Consensus has nothing to do with reality. Reality needs no apporval from us.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
"This will just take a second dear... And please don't look at me that way."
jar:You keep asserting that but so far have never bothered to show us an example of such a thing as Absolute Morality or an Absolute Moral. Was Cho in his right mind? Did he do anything wrong when he killed those people? Or was he just dancing to his perception of reality and otherwise faultless?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Ringo:
You seem to continuously forget that we are talking about perceptions of reality, not some imagined "real" reality. And yet you posit that contradiction as a 'real' reality. Sounds like Sarte's 'No Exit' to me... Do you realize he undertood in the end? He realized the contradiction on his deathbed. I think you'll see it before then, but I can't force it upon you.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
jar:
...our current legal code... An irrelevant manmade imposition?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Ringo:
I posit nothing. That's a fact... I don't believe you have said anything either.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
jar:
Of course. All legality and morality we can know seems to be man made. So far no one has been able to show any other kind. Instead of your irrelevant one liners do you ever intend to post anything that is on topic and relevant? Would I be doing anything that is 'actually' wrong if I didn't?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Archer:
How are you going to do that while denying the absolute nature of reality itself? I know I have not listened enough. But you have not either... I agree that reality is absolute.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Archer:
On the contrary: to establish 'the moral law'--or stinky tofu or anything else--as an absolute you must first establish it as a reality. Man... you're totally misunderstanding me... Morality is part of reality. And reality is absolute.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Uh.. I have no idea what your talking about.
And I only used the example you tore apart with some interesting math... so as to demsonstrate it's failure myself. I guess that means we agree that it doesn't hold water..., but I dunno... I presented the counterperspective as a more livable alternative to the weakness of the naturalist implications. Archer, we're just not on the same page, or map. Sorry... Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Rob:
Would I be doing anything that is 'actually' wrong if I didn't? jar;Yes, you will be continuing to not follow the rules and guidelines of this forum. So the rules governing any given system are absolute and determined by the creator/creators of said system? And any violation of them is an 'actual' offense of an objective essential to the system and demands justice? Edited by Rob, : No reason given.
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Maybe this will help in explaining why I believe morality to be absolute...
Archer:Oh. So you DO think reality is absolute Yes... and that is why 'wrong' things like what happened at V. Tech are wrong. That is why lying about facts is wrong. I'm not talking about ignorance. I am talking about a intentional falsehood. It is absolutely wrong. And telling the truth, even at the expense of our own political expediency is absolutely good. Can you question those examples logically?
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Rob  Suspended Member (Idle past 5877 days) Posts: 2297 Joined: |
Archer:
How much more 'liveable' it is (for you) than some other picture is (for you). I never said anything about it being livable. In fact, as the story goes, only one person ever lived it. So He is the leader. It's the hardest thing in the world. As C.S. Lewis said, 'we could never have guessed it.' Not the kind of thing that humans think of. No... we think of things which put us on the top.
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