Before the Big Bang

I am new here and I will identify myself as neither an atheist or creationist (certainly not the latter). I would say I lean very much in the direction of science but stop short of pretending to know the un-known. That is the supernatural and what was there before the Big Bang? One may be proven some day but the other will have to be revealed to us as it is not scientifically testable.My questions are these:I have heard many times that space and time do not or need not exist without the Big Bang under that same theory. What I have a hard time understanding is why. At what point does space time break down and stop existing? For each moment in time it would seem there are infinite smaller moments between. Does time really even exist at all or just space? Can space time exist in a black hole? Is it necessary that infinitely small and dense locations be devoid of space and time? Singularity that is.A different topic:I know that disproving creation is possible...is disproving the existence of God possible?Sorry for all the jumbled questions but if you have incite in to any of them I would appreciate your response.

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I think therefore I am...busy

Reserve, Time is another concoction of man to explain the relationship between the visible universe, and location within the visible universe. Infinity need not be a measure of time and DOES exist and can easily be demonstrated so we need not discuss the possibilities of IF there was something before the Big Bang only WHAT did it look like. Can the properties of the universe exist in infinity? Of course...if it exists today it would ALWAYS exist in some form. This eliminates the need for a creator but does not exclude the possibilty. I am not here to try and prove that God does not exist only that the universe COULD always exist.

Thanks Chiroptera,That brings up another question. I have often heard that theories cannot be proven only proved not to be true. Proving something not to be true seems to me to be proving something.A little help here? As you can tell I am not a scientist nor scholar just someone recently introduced to science as an interest.

Chiro,Sorry I couldn't respond yesterday.My main question was where does spacetime (or at least the laws explaining it) as we know it break down. If singularity is what came before the Big Bang and it can be shown that spacetime cannot or does not exist in singularity...then at what exact point after does spacetime exist as we know it? Immediately or 10 to the -43rd power seconds after the Big Bang? Is a black hole considered singularity? If it's singularity can each black hole be explained as a reverse Big Bang?Where do the known natural laws break down when explaining what happens to space and time and matter as it nears singularity?

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I think therefore I am...busy

Chiro,Thanks again! I don't want to get caught up in semantics here. When I say Big Bang and Singularity and space time I realize we are talking about descriptive words to describe things we are not 100% clear on. I know (at least I think I do) that there was not really an explosion but more of a rapid expansion. Let's call it Extreme Expansion for all I care. Call Singularity an infinitely small and dense point which includes the entire mass of the universe. Again not a big deal what we call it. Let's call proven infinitely close to being verified fact in order to get around the semantics.Do you know if I can express a Black Hole as a cone shape funnel (like a twisting tornado) where the tip is the singularity? I am just trying to get a picture of whether or not I think a reverse Big Bang can be at the other side of Singularity or in another dimension. A negative Big Bang in essence or mirror Big Bang you know...equal and opposite. In other words are there possible other smaller universes on the other side of Black Holes? I know that there is probably no literal "other side". If a Black Hole is around long enough and creates sufficient gravity by eating up surrounding stars will it eventually engulf the rest of the universe?I am just wondering and not looking necessarily for verification as much as I am looking for the answer NO that cannot happen. Is it a feasible possibility (not an ifinitely small possibiltiy) option in other words. If you don't have the answer that's fine. Anyone that can offer info is appreciated. Sorry for all the annoying questions.

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I think therefore I am...busy

Son Goku,Interesting. So the laws that help explain spacetime break down in sufficient heat or energy and can exist (how we know it) after sufficient cooling. It has nothing to do with denisty other than the density presumably has something to do with the heat via friction?I wonder if the Big Bang can be described as an overstuffed laundry basket where the contents just couldn't hold itself anymore by virtue of there being so much inside of it. Or would it be better to say a chemical reaction like a can of coke that under sufficient heat or cold would explode. I guess that wouldn't explain the continual expansion now would it?

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I think therefore I am...busy

Son Goku,Okay I figured I would be in over my head here but I will try to grasp it as much as it is graspable. Whatever that stuff is (I thought) was the contents of the universe in a different form. If a Black Hole is a reverse scenario of Big bang then the contents moving toward and into the infinite density are in fact some of the contents of the universe...correct? I will assume everything changes form or property in high energy/density. Are you saying that there really may be no pressure/force exerted on the contents in the form or property they take in singularity. I wonder is the singularity form of the universe the preferred/natural form or is the Big Bang form preferred by it's contents? I guess that's kind of a chaos vs order question.I promise I will stop after this one for today. Thanks for your help and Chiro too!

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I think therefore I am...busy