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Author | Topic: Before Big Bang God or Singularity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
OK. When did it come into existence if it is only 13 billion to 20 billion years old? Your concept of time may be the problem. In the number set (5-20), what comes before 5? The question doesn't make sense. We experience time in a linear fashion because the chemical and electric reactions that produce our consciousness function only in the direction of increasing entropy - ie, in a single direction in time. But time is just another dimension of the Universe, like width, or height, or length. It's had for us to understand, because our perception of time is like only being able to walk forward without turning or stopping. In your case, you're trying to ask what your footsteps look like farther back than when you began walking. If you ask what in this room is higher than the ceiling, the question doesn't make sense. Likewise, asking what came before time when the word "before" requires the dimension of time to exist doesn't make sense either. You're asking what's further than "left." Cavediver, please feel free to correct my innumerable analogies. When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Really? BTW, it is 'definitely' - think of it as de-finite, you won't go wrong again... Thanks for the spelling correction.
cavediver writes: I wish I'd known you were such an expert on space-time physics. Why can it not be in the future? Then we don't exist and this exchange never took place yet. Now are you are talking about it happening in the future again? According to the Bible this universe will melt with fervent heat and there will be a new heaven and earth.
2Pet 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Looks like it 'definitely' will happen again. Have fun now, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Then at the Big Bang. Time, space, and all matter did not come into existence. Exactly - this is the case with the model as it stands. Other models may argue along different lines but they still don't explain the origin of all reality. That is, if an event occurred which 'caused' the universe to appear - then they still don't attempt to explain the origins of the 'metaverse' in which our universe is a resident.
Like the Andromeda Galaxy, Sunflower Galaxy, or our milky way galaxy. Then what was the function of the Big Bang? It doesn't serve any 'function', it just is.
OK. When did it come into existence if it is only 13 billion to 20 billion years old? The question makes no sense. There is no 'when' it came into existence - there is no time outside of the universe by which to judge 'when' it happened. It exists and we exist within it at a certain coordinate within that which is billions of years from time=0.
This is supposed to be my line. No, your view is that time stretches into infinity in both directions. The view I explained can have the time dimension with a finite 'length'.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Of course there is space-time. The singularity is surrounded by it. The singularity is a feature of that space-time, and arises because of the nature of that space-time. Simple... Then if it is that simple you should not have any problem informing me of: Where that space-time came from? Who or what created it? Have fun now, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3672 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Thanks for the spelling correction. It's an old error of mine, so I always notice it
Then we don't exist and this exchange never took place yet. You keep saying this and I have no idea why.
Now are you are talking about it happening in the future again? Yes, so what? We are talking about theories of space-time and existence here. You don't expect it to be obvious, common sense, and easy to understand did you?
According to the Bible this universe I really don't trust the Bible as a cosmology textbook, but even so, how does this negate what I am saying?
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3672 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Where that space-time came from? I'm not sure what this means - all possible 'froms' are contained within the space-time.
Who or what created it? Why should it need creating? Why can it not just be?
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
Then if it is that simple you should not have any problem informing me of: Where that space-time came from? Who or what created it? Why does it have to "come from" anything at all? Why does it need to be "created?" We know that the Universe does exist. We have a pretty good idea of many of its properties (by no means a complete understanding). The idea that it needed to be "created" or at some point did not exist is an assumption on your part (and the latter doesn't even make sense - the Universe has existed at every single point in time, because the Universe includes time). When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.
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tesla Member (Idle past 1622 days) Posts: 1199 Joined: |
Why should it need creating? Why can it not just be? good question. and if we are alive in this universe, its one we should ask. something cannot "literally" come form nothing. so by science, explore what the something was. and to know if it came from intelligence, or from random force, we need to observe what the start can potentially be, or not be. a single timeless energy that just was, and evolved points to intelligence on every level. and a single intelligent energy that evolved would then be "creation". a single intelligent energy that creates based on only itself is an act of faith. keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is ~parmenides
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 7.6 |
something cannot "literally" come form nothing. You're assuming there ever was "nothing." Modern physics says nothing of the sort. As has been stated repeatedly in this thread, the Big Bang has nothing to do with creation ex nihilo. The Universe did not come into existence from nothing, or by chance. It simply followed out the extrapolation of its natural properties in the direction of increasing entropy (in other words, it is expanding in one direction of time, which we experience linearly but is simply another dimension like width). When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.
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tesla Member (Idle past 1622 days) Posts: 1199 Joined: |
You're assuming there ever was "nothing" wrong. im saying at no time was there ever a point that there was "nothing" because if that is even considered you invite to possibility you do not exist. thats mental illness. dig deeper. even if there is a greater heaven beyond our universe in another "plane" of existence, then there was still another "before that". and if you follow "before that" you find T=0 regardless of the spaces in between. its science. keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is ~parmenides
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes: ICANT, time is part of space-time. Yes and according to the Big Bang Theory time came into existence at T=0 or T=0+, space, matter and everything that what you can see came from. I build things.I have to have materials. They have to come from somewhere. Somebody has to manufacture the plywood, roofing materials, block, etc. These materials have to be made from something. That something has to come from somewhere. Trees, oil products, or materials in the ground. That material had to come from somewhere. I am told that it came from the singularity. OK where did the singularity come from? The singularity came from a point in space-time caused by the positive curvature of that space-time. Then I am told that space and time was created in the Big Bang. OK where did the Big Bang come from? The singularity. But wait a minute the singularity had to come from the Big Bang as there was no space and time matter or anything. To me that looks like circular reasoning to me. Like the question, Which came first the chicken or the egg? Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Rahvin,
Rahvin writes: Why does it need to be "created?" Then it had to come from an absence of anything. Simple Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes: No, your view is that time stretches into infinity in both directions. The view I explained can have the time dimension with a finite 'length'. If it has always been how can it end? What will cause the end? Have fun, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes: Why should it need creating? Why can it not just be?
You lost me somewhere along the line. Could you please give me your rendition of "The Big Bang Theory""? Thanks, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Then I am told that space and time was created in the Big Bang. The Big Bang didn't create spacetime. Spacetime was in existence, as the singularity, and then it started expanding. This expansion is referred to as the Big Bang.
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