The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread

Ok, but it says the 3D world is not perceived via the eye but inferred by the brain.That's a debatable topic for another thread. Until I know more about the topic, I'll admit that it's beyond my understanding and my argument may be unsubstantiated.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

No. Rather, your arguments keeps on misapplying my position to your own 4D position which has four stacked dimensions, thus essentially applying my 3D model to a 2d model.Question: Does 4D stack 4 dimensions parallel?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. But my model models reality of what is observed. My model has the three basic spatial dimensions. You are applying time as a non-spatial dimension, that is non-geometric. It has no geometric line and imperceivable geometrically. That's why it is not included in my model.2. My argument, my position and my model are 3D. I am saying my model WILL NOT CURVE, no matter how far it is extended. YOU HAVE FINALLY ADMITTED HERE THAT THAT IS CORRECT.3. As I understand it, what the 4th (time) dimension does to 3D when it is applied to space, i.e. spacetime, according to conventional science, is to allegedly (abe: cause curvature) to all three dimensions of 3D to become 2 parallel geometric spatial lines over time.The bottom line which represents 2 dimensions, i.e. longitude and latitude, becomes one dimension since a line has one dimension. The top 1D line, altitude/height, having becoming allegedly bent, over time becomes parallel to the bottom 1D line by alleged curvature. So what the unreal thing 4D does by applying time is change the real 3D universe into a magical illusionary 2D of parallel dimensions capable of curvature, yet each line remaining straight as it curves.4, The problem of adding the 4th dimension, time, to my 3D bar model and trying to argue that it's ends will join is that it is not a one dimensional line and it's three dimensions can never be magically parallel curvable one or two dimensional lines because unlike one dimensional lines, it's dimensions have a physical measurement, two of which never change when it is extended.5. This is why conventional science MUST apply only one or two dimensional models such as geometric lines or 2D surfaces but that obfuscates my model.That's what you people have been doggedly denying for five long pages now and you demean me for incomprehension! The above appears to be the reason conventional science can't identify the alleged property of space capable of curvature other than geometric math etc. It's all illusional geometric lines.ABE: Imo, the notion that space has alleged properties capable of being curved, as I've shown above is nothing but a concocted illusion to support the BBT. Imo, it doesn't even deserve the status of hypothesis since it has no legitimate model.Edited by Buzsaw, : Add commentEdited by Buzsaw, : change wording for clarification

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

But I understand how adding the time dimension skews my 3D model position/argument in this thread by curving dimensions.Nobody has refuted my explanation of how adding the time dimension to 1D line math/geometric models obfuscate and skew my real measurable 3D model. I've explained how geometric lines can be curve but my measurable 3D bar dimensions can not be curved.Now you're ignoring the valid points made in my message and reverting right back to the mathematical 1D line models which is motion of a ball. The path of the ball is nothing but geometrics and numbers, which in time can be curved.In your original setting regarding this, the path of the ball thrown was from one end of an uncurvable bar but your dimension argument relative to the dimensions of the path of the ball model had no application of the straight bar.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

GONG! By the same token I could say that the property of Jehovah, the Biblical god is that he exists, Jehovah meaning the existing oneBiblical god Jehovah exists because Jehovah is god = curvature of space exists because space curves.The question remains unanswered: What is the property of space which allows curvature of space?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

We're still waiting for something substantive (abe: rather) than snide remarks from you, Ned, beginning with your Admin remarks. Is it because you're incapable of specifying why my arguments are invalid? Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Thanks for weighing in here, Son Goku. Perhaps I need to recap my position.I don't know whether you've read the thread so far, but I don't think it has been empirically established that aspects of forces, matter and energy can be properties of spaces. One of my counterparts in this debate (I believe it was PaulK) said that mass causes curvature of space.I'm saying that the only property of space is existing unbounded infinite area in which all mass, energy and forces exists, leaving the only property of space as existing area in which all mass forces and energy exist. Were it not for what's in space, the universe would be an infinite existing perfect vacuum called space.I'm also saying that time is not a property of space and that they are separate entities. Time relates to mass, energy and forces which exist in space and not to space perse.I've shown that in a bona fide real 3D universe time or space have no property capable of curving my 3D measurable bar. The only way space can be shown to curve is in a 4D model of abstract geometric lines, time having the effect of 2D and 1D parallel dimensions which are curvable on paper or in the mind. As I've insisted, that's why 2d models are always used and my 3D not bended bar model is so despised as a model. There remains no property of space capable of curving the three dimensions of my model without bending one of it's dimensions and without changing it. If it is extended, all that time can do is allow it to extend to the extent that energy allows, all of it's three dimensions remaining uncurved and not bended.What have I said above that is wrong?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

It appears I need to clarify my analogy.For space science to ascribe the existence of space curvature as factual to the claim that space does curve is equal to creationists ascribing the existence of Jehovah as supreme god to our claim that Jehovah is supreme god.Both camps claim evidence exists. Savvy?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

If I gave that impression, I didn't mean to. If you read message 167 carefully it reiterates my space position. It has no properties of shape.Perhaps the mass existing in the universe which is in space/area has a galaxy shape which may or may not factor in on the perception of curvature of the universe's aggregate mass. I don't think there's any way to know since we have no idea if what we can observe is a speck of the aggregate mass of the universe or if it is a significant portion of it.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

1. Who said anything about Jehovah relative to anything to do with certain aspects of space? Read and think about why I said what I said.2. I repeat: No property of space allows for anything to happen in the universe. All pertains to the mass, forces and energy existing in space which happens in the universe.3. Likely there are significant forces, energy and even perhaps mass which are of dimensions yet undetectable by scientific methodology such as what we regard as supernatural or mystic.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Say what?? Property has a hole in a donut??? Well anyhow, speaking of donut holes, they have some identifiable properties such as space and the elements existing in it's area.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

My model is not a photon in a vacuum. You know what my model and position is and I'm not repeating it for you.You need to refute the positions I've raised as to space, time and how they relate to my 3D bar model argument in order to get a response from me.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I'm questioning your interpretation of what we can see. My model challenges your 4D spacetime interpretation of what we see. You need to refute the points made in my message #145 item by item.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

The 10 year old has been programmed into the BB spacetime mindset, but guess what? Most 10 year olds can understand that the 3D bar's ends will not join regardless of how much time you give it and how long it gets. Why can't you?2. My argument, my position and my model are 3D. I am saying my model WILL NOT CURVE, no matter how far it is extended. YOU HAVE FINALLY ADMITTED HERE THAT THAT IS CORRECT. Most 10 year olds can see that your four dimensions are not co-ordinates. Three are spatial and time is not. You're trying to co-ordinate a not spatial dimension into my model so as to obfuscate it. It does not co-ordinate. The way you do this is to take your pencil and rig up a geometric model of one and two dimensions which is not reality, as I've been arguing all these pages. Why can't you see that?3. As I understand it, what the 4th (time) dimension does to 3D when it is applied to space, i.e. spacetime, according to conventional science, is to allegedly (abe: cause curvature) to all three dimensions of 3D to become 2 parallel geometric spatial lines over time. Most 10 year olds can answer it. Why can't you? Again, when you can't refute, belittle the messenger and run.5. This is why conventional science MUST apply only one or two dimensional models such as geometric lines or 2D surfaces but that obfuscates my model. You're spinning round and round, Straggler. You ignore the fact that my model has three spatial dimensions just as does the universe. Your model tries to add a 4th non-spatial and non-coordinate which does not model the spatial dimensions of the universe.That's what you people have been doggedly denying for five long pages now and you demean me for incomprehension! Sure. I'm not at all surprised. You've programmed into his young impressionable mind what to think.Straggler, you're wasting your time with the path of the ball. All it amounts to is more obfuscative math and geometrical lines.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

And it's been soundly refuted. Can you do any better? LOL!

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.