Why did God forgive our sins?

In short, God has the ability to create the 'sinless' man but chooses to do so only in a manner that guarantees that there will be those that don't make it.God does not have to do this. God is God. He could create the sinless man from the beginning, but chooses not to do so. If the foreign element of sin is be removed, this must mean that either man no longer knows what sin is, or knows what sin is but is incapable of sinning. Either way, God could have started from this point first, instead of starting from a point that guarantees that the vast majority of men will suffer for an eternity and only a select few will live, god like or god merged, in heaven.In the end, God will have created a system in which there is far more misery than there is joy.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Read what I wrote. God did create the sinless man, but only in a manner that guarantees that the vast majority of men, in fact all men, will not remain sinless.God's ultimate goal is to create the sinless man, or at least the man that knows sin but is incapable of doing so. All I am pointing out is that God could have started from this point, but he didn't. He started from a point that guarantees that there will be more misery than joy. Hold it, either we have free will or we don't. If Adam made his mistake because of his own free will, then God should have punished Adam but not the rest of us. But that's not how the story plays out. Adam sinned and God cast the whole lot of us out of the garden. This indicates to me that God knows, because of Adam's actions, that we're all basically sinners. This indicates that, free will or not, the fundamental design predisposes us to sin. A system that God himself created! A system that promises to create more misery than joy. Yes I can! The system works as designed and in the end there will be more misery than joy. It's that simple. What kind of 'love' creates more misery than joy? Then God is not omniscient and thus not God! He created the system knowing full well what the outcome would be. More misery than joy. Trust must be earned.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Really? Did God share his spread-sheet with you to show you those figures? Are you God's personal spokes person here on Earth? Sounds to me like you speak as if you KNOW what God's plans are. Luke 12:32 Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.Matt 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14]But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.Matt 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22]Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' [23]Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'Matt 22:14 14"For many are invited, but few are chosen."Luke 13:23-24 23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.Need any more passages from the Bible ICANT? Not to mention that it is the Christian belief that the only way to get to heaven is through the Son. Do all religions believe in the Son? The answer is NO. According to Christian doctrine, billions of people will not be chosen to go to heaven.So, my point stands. God has created a system that will result in more misery than Joy. I trust the airlines and the airline pilot because they have a stunning track record of success. You have nothing but blind faith and from what I can see, your faith has made you blind.Cheers,
--Caldron68

No Jaywill, I'm simply pointing out the difference between the system we have now and the system that God will eventually create.In a previous post you said this: My point is that if God can remove the element of sin, then he probably should have done that to begin with. God is God, no? What is the point of the current system if in the end it will create more misery than joy. And what does that result say about the designer?In the end those that make it into heaven will have their sin removed. This means that either their sin will be completely removed, and they no longer know what sin is, or they will know what sin is but will be incapable of sinning. In either case the end result is a sinless system. And since this will be the case, then obviously God can create a sinless system but has chosen not to do so for his creation on Earth. Why?So, the statement stands. God has created a system that will result in more misery than joy. In fact, I think I'll embellish this statement a little. How's this one:God has created a system that will result in far more misery than joy.Cheers,
--Caldron68Edited by caldron68, : No reason given.

Yes I have. Here it is again: Matt 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. [14]But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.The key here is the last few words and only a few find it.There's no mistaking what is being said here. It plainly shows that the road to hell is wide and that many will enter through and that the gate to heaven is narrow and few will find the way.Quote any other scripture you like. The Christian doctrine holds that there will be fewer in heaven than in hell. Period.And, as I pointed out in a previous post, this is just from the Christian doctrine. If the Christian Doctrine is correct, it means that those of other faiths are just out of luck. It was either you or Jaywill that said that Hindus will not go to heaven and the fault for this lies with their Fathers. That's a whole lot of people that are not going to Heaven.So, you tell me (or show me, for that matter) where it is written that there will be far MORE people in Heaven than there will be in Hell. Can you? Don't just tear apart the little passages that I have provided and try to deflect the issue.Until you can do this you must admit that the system will produce more misery than it will joy. It's that simple.Cheers,
--Caldon68

Free will has nothing to do with it. Look back at the message where I directly quote Jaywill. He plainly says that God will create the sinless man, it's only a matter of time. The point I have been trying to get across is that if God can do this, he should have done it the first time around.Yes, it is my opinion that the current system is unnecessary, just like Noah's flood. The end result is that God will have his New Jerusalem and sinless men. The problem is that he has chosen to first construct a system that will leave more in misery than in Joy. I guess nobody actually reads my posts. Is it true that not all religions recognize Jesus Christ as the savior? If the way to God is through Jesus Christ then far more will not find God than do.What a system. What a design. Perhaps it's just a story and has no real foundations in reality. Hmmmm.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Bertot, first, thanks for the reply. Of all the replies that I have received to this thread, I think yours are the move level-headed. Thank You.But, I think you're missing my point. Considering that God is omniscient and omnipotent, that is, taking into account that God knows the outcome of his actions before he sets them in motion, doesn't it make sense that a truly loving God would create a system in which more of his beloved creation is saved than destroyed?My main point is that, in the end, God will create a perfect Earth or New Jerusalem with sinless men. He knows this is where things need to end up and since God is God, he could have created this perfect place first. We can argue that he did create this perfect place and that it was Adam that screwed it up. Certainly God knew this was going to happen and he could have taken steps to change this outcome.It is obvious from reading the previous posts that free will is a thing of the past when man finally arrives in heaven. ICANT says that God will erase his memory and others have said that God will remove sin from man altogether (Jaywill) once he reaches heaven. If this is the case, then God will be removing free will from man once he reaches Heaven. Why not start there in the first place?Of course, the problem with this is that we are also told that there IS freewill in heaven. This is why we have a Satan in the first place. Lucifer exercised his freewill and POW, we have Satan. We have to look at Adam as a metaphor for all men. That each man individually will exercise his freewill and will either end up in Heaven or in hell. The problem is that the deck has been stacked against us from the beginning. If it wasn't, then the Bible would describe the road to hell as being narrow and the road to Heaven as being wide. But that is not the case. The road to hell is described as wide in the Bible and many will travel it. The bible also describes the gate to Heaven as narrow and few will find it. It's a given that more men will go to hell than heaven. There's no getting around that because that is what the Bible says and that is what Christians believe, including myself. Why is this? Why does our freewill more easily lead us to a path of destruction than to a path of salvation? And again, why did God not see this coming and realize that the outcome would render more sorrow than happiness? My complaint is perfectly legitimate. God knows that his system will render more misery than joy and Christians find that perfectly acceptable. I agree. All of this is a myth and not God's will, so it does not matter. Yes, my complaint is derived from the scriptures and they plainly say that more men will go to hell than Heaven. Regardless of the scale of balance between scriptures that describe the kind and loving God vs those that describe the vengeful and wrath filled God, my statement remains true and intact. They don't. The scriptures do not contradict themselves in terms of freewill and punishment. And it's not a simple complaint and it is completely valid as a reasonable argument. What could be more valid than the statement that more men will end up in hell than in Heaven? I'm NOT saying anything that is NOT in the bible, right? The logical conclusion then is, that there will be more misery and not just a temporary misery but an eternal misery. That is unless we think that the lake of fire is akin to a soak in the hot tub. Not just the skeptic. When faced with any biblical conundrum, the believer quickly cherry picks a handful of individual pieces of scripture in order to deflect the issue.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Thanks for proving my point ICANT.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Thanks for backing me up on this.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Thanks for backing me up on this. God is God, he has/had the power to do the right thing and chose not to. I have no perverse sense of independence or superiority to God. I am simply asking a question and you have taken offense to that question. And with all due respect to you, I will decide, but in my own good time. I am simply exercising my freewill to question the outcome of God's plan. Who am I to question? Nobody. Who gave me the right to question? God did. I am happy that you have found your peace Jaywill. Don't belittle me for taking a path that, at this point, is different from yours. Perhaps it is just the way I was built, who knows. My earliest recollection of the Church is being taught the story of Noah. My first reaction to that story was one of doubt. How could Noah have built a boat large enough, etc, etc....?The problem for me is that the Bible contains stories that, when read literally, simply cannot be true and are not backed up by scientific fact. My fight is with those that believe the opposite. Those that believe that every word is the absolute truth about how things happened dispite the volume of evidence to the contrary.Cheers,
--Caldron68

You make these statements and you think I am confused? I was simply repeating what you said. That God would have to erase your memory or Heaven would be full of misery. I guess what you really meant is that God will only have to erase part of your memory. That is, the memory of anybody who did not make it into heaven. He will not erase the memory of those that do make it into memory.In short, in order for your stay in heaven to not be miserable, God will only have to erase some of your memory. I thought we were perfect. This is central to the point that I have made. God will have to modify man in order for man to fulfill his purpose. I guess it's OK to refute the Bible when it suits your needs, right ICANT? Can you please quote the scripture that says that there will be more people in Heaven than there will be in hell? I have already shown you the scripture that says that few will find their way to heaven. Except that your math is completely wrong. Your assumption here is that the abortion rate is higher than the birth rate! Not to mention that if those 30 children out of the 104 per second are of age and have not accepted Jesus Christ as their savior (Muslim, Hindu, etc.....) they are not going to heaven either.You're wrong and you know you're wrong. The Bible says that many will go to hell and that few will pass through the narrow gate into heaven. Period. End of story. It's in the Bible.Cheers,
--Caldron68Edited by caldron68, : No reason given.

I see your point Bertot, and you are correct, we don't have God's perspective. What we do have is his written word, and the written word supports my central statement. We have to make assumptions about the true nature of God in order to claim that there is a contradiction in my statement.In terms of the dilemma, we have three choices:1) God's plan will result in more misery but God will erase parts of our memory in order to make things ok.2) God's plan does not result in more misery and we simply do not have enough information in order to see this.3) Neither 1 or 2 is correct and it's all a myth anyway. Me too! God certainly caused Job a great deal of pain and suffering. Unnecessary pain and suffering, if you ask me. If I had been God in that situation, I would have told Satan to go pound sand and keep his crubby mitts off of my man Job. God knew Job to be just and righteous. There was no need to allow Satan to do what he did just so God could say "I told you so". Then you know my perspective and understand why this decision (to believe) is one that is very hard to make. God punishes the scientific mind and gives a pass to the ignorant. God gives full pass to the serial killer and condemns the Einsteins of this world to hell. Ignorance is held in higher regard than rational thinking. In this system Adolf Hitler might be in Heaven and Stephen Hawking might not.In a previous thread ICANT painted a picture of himself in Heaven. He was there viewing a long line of the people that would not be making it into heaven that day. This line included people who's only crime was to not believe what can rationally be considered a fairy tale.Unfortunately, the line that ICANT was standing in also included those that had committed real crimes. Murder, rape, incest, genocide, you name it. As long as those people believed in Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, they got a free pass into Heaven. Does this sound fair to you? What perspective could we possible gain that would resolve this obvious bias? Not wrong. Does Satan exist or doesn't he? Doe he influence our lives or doesn't he? Christian belief holds that he does and thus the deck is most certainly stacked against us. Why not just leave it to freewill? Isn't there enough evil in the world? Did God need to throw Satan in the mix too?So, I will agree that the deck is not stacked against us if you will agree that Satan either does not exist or that he has no influence upon our lives. So we can eliminate freewill from the equation then. What we're left with is lust and those other things that draw us toward evil. This essentially is what I was talking about previously. Let's just call it man's nature. This nature is either influenced by outside forces (Satan) or was programmed into us by God himself. We are tempted by visual stimulation (you decide what that is). Why could we have not been pre-programmed to be repulsed by that same visual stimulation? I respectfully disagree. If we have the same amount of ability to do the right thing as the wrong, why does man tend toward the wrong? God knows that this is the case. The Bible supports it. There must be some reason why this is the case and if so, God could have corrected the problem in the first place.Cheers,
--Caldron68

God could have made it a lot more simple. There could have been acceptance into Heaven or simply a spiritual death. But that's not the system that we have. You either go to Heaven or you go to hell. No spiritual death. You either suffer eternally or you sing God's praises eternally.No Earthly crime can keep you out of Heaven as long as you have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior. That's fair, right? Ted Bundy is in Heaven because at the very last second, before he was put to death here on Earth, he accepted Jesus and had all of his Earthly sins removed. Hitler too, I'm sure.God gave us rules to live by. 10 commandments as a matter of fact. Thou shalt not kill. But evidently if you do it's ok as long as you believe in the Son. In fact, I could worship Satan and perform human sacrifices in his name and STILL make it in to Heaven. No punishment would be metered out. God will remove my sin, erase the parts of my mind that cause me to think the way that I do and everything will just be great. But man oh man you better not require evidence for your belief! If you do, you're going straight to hell. Don't pass go, no chance to explain yourself.Did Gandhi go to Heaven or hell? Under the Christian belief, he went to hell. Ted Bundy is in Heaven and Gandhi went to hell? Rational or irrational, you decide.Cheers,
--Caldron68

Why's that?Cheers,
--Caldron68

Thanks. That's the point I was trying to make.Cheers,
--Caldron68