On this day, let us all be proud of America

I expected that this thread would generate a certain amount of criticism of President Obama, despite that such would be only tangentially related to the topic. I am distressed, however, to see the amount of completely unrelated topic material. I have no wish to call anyone out in particular. I will simply issue this request: Please mind the topic of this thread in the first message. Ignore or take someplace else any off topic sewage.Thank you.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Actually, Subbie, I think this is on-topic. This thread is about America passing a milestone in overcoming bigotry and intolerance, and that's exactly what's being discussed.Bertot: Yes, I include any bigoted and intolerant Atheists. Bigots are bigots. There are Christian bigots, there are Jewish bigots, there are Atheist bigots, black bigots, white bigots, gay bigots, bigots of every flavor.Obama's election signifies that enough of the voting public in America now is willing to look past race to allow a member of a minority to be elected, and that's a massive milestone. I count Obama's direct mention of Atheists in his speech (to my knowledge a first from any President) as a major milestone for non-believers, as well.But despite this significant milestone, the fight isn't over. For any of us. Many Atheists feel so persecuted by the religious majority that they fall into the "us vs. them" trap and throw out the same sort of "you shouldn't be allowed to exist" garbage that fundamentalists often throw at us.That's the wrong path.As an Atheist, Bertot, I think your religion is silly. I think you're flat-out wrong. I can even support assertions regarding the invalidity of the Bible as a literally true history book with real-world evidence. I think that Creationists who continue to deny scientific theories whose accuracy can be and have been demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt are either unintelligent or (more often) brainwashed by a horrifically effective self-perpetuating meme that preys on the weaknesses of human thought patterns. I agree with Dawkins that the world would probably be a better place if religion had never existed, or had died out with the rise of the scientific method.But I fully support your right to believe whatever you want to believe. If you want to believe that the Bible is literally true, I will do no more than argue and debate with you. I will never support any movement to forcibly convert anyone to or from any religion, including forcing people to abandon religion altogether. I do not agree with Dawkins that religion should be outlawed. Time and again we've seen that forcing a belief on someone, regardless of how noble a goal we may think we have, always ends causing more harm than the good it was supposed to bring. Changing belief systems can only happen by argument and persuasion, and never by force. The government must therefor remain utterly neutral on religious topics so that all belief systems are protected and we never again see religious intolerance backed by the force of arms.If anyone says that Christians should be forcibly de-converted, that person is a bigot. If any person says that homosexuals are "sinful" simply for being homosexuals (including engaging in homosexual sex), that person is a bigot. If any person says that members of one race are intrinsically better or worse than members of another race, that person is a bigot.Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. said in his famous speech that he dreamed of a day when his daughters would be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. A significant portion of America has made a significant move towards achieving that dream. But as I said, there's more. Racism is not the only form of bigotry. I look forward to the day when I won't hear people like Buz wailing about Muslim conspiracies to destroy "good Christians." I look forward to the day when, if a politician like Bush Sr. said that Atheists are "neither citizens nor Patriots, this is one country under God," that politician's career would be over with just as much public outcry as if he had accused Christians or Jews or Muslims of not being citizens or Patriots.That's what I look forward to - when none of us are judged by our skin color, where we were born, the language we speak, the gender we're attracted to, or the religions we believe in or do not believe in, but rather we are judged by our actions and the content of our character; when we can disagree and debate even the biggest questions in life and still not violate each others' rights, and still treat each other as human beings first, and everything else after.I'm happy that we're passing this milestone, with "a man whose father 60 years ago would likely not be served at a local restaurant" because of his skin color can now be President of the united States; the next milestone can't come soon enough.

My sentiments exactly. particularly "we are judged by our actions and the content of our character"

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

I'll bet that I'm the first member of this EvC board who voted for a black US presidential candidate. I did so back in 1996. I would have been proud and pleased if Allan Keys who also ran in '08 became the first black American president, not so much because of his race but because of what he stood for, his knowledge and his qualifications.Keys was both qualified and principled to conserve the American way as per the founders and the Constitution which they established.Unlike Keys, Obama, having the most liberal voting record in Congress has carried a lot of baggage relative to his past to the highest office in the land and likely the world. This thread is not to go into that but Obama has always been stealth in that his record in state and federal government shows that he often votes "present." Why? So that he could remain stealth as to who he was and how he would govern as president. Relatively few Americans know who this man really is or what he has consistently stood for. Most are not aware of the significance of who his mentors and associates have been. For nubies, there are already threads on the Obama baggage.The only ones who know who Obama is are us who pay attention to his life and his record. Most haven't a either haven't a clue, voted race or don't care (just do it).Subbie, do you really expect folks to be proud to have a new black president even if they didn't agree with anything he stands for? May God help us if race trumps the principles and qualifications in electing the President of the US of A.Subbie, do you think for a minute that if Allan Keys were inaugurated president today that there would have been the crowed and hoopla we have witnessed today? Would you be doing this thread if that it was Allan Keys or Clarence Thomas?No, Subbie. I'm not proud, but terrorist organizations like Hammas and most Muslims, Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam here in America, the black supremacists, and the Communist Party who endorsed him are proud and jubilant along with you and so many other dupes who supported him. His native? land, Kenya, who's tyrannic leader Obama supported is proud with you, so much so that a national holiday has been declared for this event.Having said the above, I will support the president's policies when I can and oppose them when I can't support them. Sorry to poor cold water on your thread, but I'm not gullible enough to be jubilant.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Gee, I thought Barack Obama was a white guy born out of the most corrupt political system in America.The Democrat Party in Chicago.Not much to celebrate here.I'm impressed, the same country with a majority who don't accept the TOE, voted for an empty suit.I'm looking foward to the Republican landside in 2 years.

Hey Subbie, And I look forward to more progress, not just in America, but in the world.Bertot still speaks in the Bush vernacular of getting even, rather than being fair, and whether his complaint is perceived or real, this is what was wrong with the Bush misadministration. On this type of thinking, Obama says you will be judged on what you can build, not what you can destroy.The years of exclusionism based on pettiness are over in our government, but there are people that still need to learn. Yes there is still a ways to go to overcome bias and bigotry, and to reduce the need to push back against intolerance whenever it raises it's ugly little head.Yes I am proud of this man that stands up for America, willing to lead it forward in hard times.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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Interesting point. What do you consider a landslide?In the 109th Congress (last with GOP majority in both chambers) there were:
Senate: 55 GOP, 44 DEM, 1 IND
House: 232 GOP, 201 DEM, 1 IND (this is the initial count, not the end count, which would be 229 GOP, 202 DEM).In the 110th Congress:
Senate: 49 GOP, 49 DEM, 1 IND (at end, it was 49 GOP, 48 DEM, 2 IND)
House: 202 GOP, 233 DEM (end count, 198 GOP, 235 DEM)In the 111th Congress (currently sitting):
Senate: 41 GOP, 57 DEM*, 2 IND
House: 178 GOP, 256 DEM.*Assuming it's Franken who has won, and it certainly seems as if Coleman's options are very limited, so chances are that Franken is the winner.In order to retake the majority in the senate, the GOP needs to gain 9 seats. There are very few elections in which that many seats change hands. Although this past one was close, with the dems gaining 7. And as of now (per 538.com), the 2010 senate elections do not look good for the GOP. You might gain some seats, but not enough to change the balance of power.The situation is worse in the House. The dems over two elections have added 55 seats. A majority in the House is 218 seats, so the GOP would have to win 40 seats in order to get their majority back.In other words, the GOP has to pull of electoral victories greater than what the dems did over the past two elections (singularly and combined) to regain their majorities.Will some ground be made? Most likely--the rule of thumb is that midterm elections are not kind to the president's party. But rarely are they massive landslides. I'm not even sure that the country going down the shitter would help the GOP. After all, in the mind of the electorate, all the problems inherited by Obama are the result of 1)Bush, so Obama's not at fault and 2)the GOP in general. Two years of rule by the dems is not going to make them forget, and unless the GOP can come up with new solutions, and that the dems have made it worse, it's going to be a relatively bland year. I'm not sure if the GOP can come up with new solutions yet, because so far not a single one has presented anything different. Further, it seems that a good portion of people are willing to give Obama time to fix the problems. They know it's not going to be quick and easy.So, where do you see the landslide coming from?

Hi Buz. Nobody's really surprised to see you piping up here. I'm just going to say a couple of things and drop this with you, because we both know where actual discussions with you on this subject will go: nowhere.I wouldn't be surprises if you voted for a black candidate before, Buz. Your bigotry is primarily religious in nature, and your racism is more subtle than dropping the N-bomb left and right.You don't consider yourself racist, which is unsurprising - most racists don't.But Obama's "native land" is not Kenya. That's where his father is from. He was born in Hawaii, and is an American citizen. By the definition you're using for "native land," I'm apparently Dutch despite having been born in Indiana. He spent his early years outside the US, true, but so have many other Americans - military children, for example, born on American soil in foreign nations and growing up in a foreign culture. These people, and Obama, are no less American than you or I.Obama has been endorsed by many less-than-desirable groups...but let's not forget that Al Qaeda endorsed John McCain. Black supremacists groups are racist - they support Obama only because he's black, just like the KKK would have not supported him for the same reason.None of that has anything to do with Obama himself.You don't like his liberal policies. We get that, and that's okay - you're a conservative. If you said "Obama is far too socialist for my tastes," I might challenge you with actual debate regarding what socialism actually is, why it's bad, and whether Obama's policies really even qualify. But instead you attack him based on the nation his ancestors were born in, the people he has loose associations with (he worked on an education project with Ayers, the two weren't best friends), and the people who have endorsed him without his request or returned support.You aren't judging Obama based on the content of his character. You're judging him by the place of his father's birth and the sound of his name. You're judging him on guilt by association and your own personal fear.You are a living example of what this nation is trying to move past.

Oh Buz, how wonderful of you. First, to your dismay perhaps, Alan Keyes was never really a serious candidate for the GOP nomination in 1996. Seems like 2000 was a better year for him. He got all of 3% of the vote in the primaries and all of 1 delegates to the 1996 GOP convention. Which means he did better than half the pack, but not even close to Steve Forbes (11%, 2d).How does Keyes compare to the democratic party? Well, you have the Rev. Jesse Jackson in 1988. He was the second place nominee in the democratic convention (Dukakis winning 2,876 delegates and Jackson 1,218). Further, during the primary campaign he managed to win 11 elections (7 primaries, 4 caucuses) and almost 7 million votes. Apparently, he was for a brief while the frontrunner in the democratic primary campaign.But neither Keyes nor Jackson were presidential candidates. They were campaigning to be the nominees of their respective parties for that position. So unless you wrote in his name, you never voted for Keyes as a presidential candidate.The rest of your post is perfectly parodied by Taz up thread.

Barack Obama was born in Haiwaii Buz. His native land is the United States of America, has your racism overridden your basic knowledge of the facts?Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

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soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

1. Hawaii's law does not allow for actual birth cirtificates to be made public. Only the family may have access to them or allow for them to be made public. Stealth Obama has yet to allow this or anything else such as his college records which might put this question to rest;
2. When Obama was enrolled in Indonesian schools that nation required Indonesian citizenship for enrollment. Did Obama's father change his and his son's membership to Indonesia to conform to the law? Unknown.
http://obamaisnotacitizen.com/

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

That's a strawman. My argument had nothing to do with the success of the Keys campaign, but the fact that I voted for a black man and that I would also be willing to vote for Clarence Thomas, had he run.The evidence is in the archives as to why I do not celebrate the presidency of Obama and none of it has a whit to do with race.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

For fuck's sake Buz are you retarded? We've gone over this already.
Message 57
Message 58
Message 60As you can see, you're wrong, again. And in message 60 you've admitted that you're wrong. Even if this is true, how does that:
1. Make Kenya his native land?
2. Overwrite the fact that he was born in the United States of America?

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soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

or so you claim.

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soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

Where is the logic or reason that I would vote for and support Keys, a black, if I'm a subtle racist, not to mention that I sent him $20 for his campaign? How subtle would that be??I know I'm not racist. I have two Chinese adopted grand daughters whom I dearly love and two adopted Mexican/American grandsons whom I dearly love.While in the US Air Force back in the early 1950s before the King days, in the office where I worked I highly regarded my black supervisor and the squadron adjutant who's office was next door to mine but while in training I despised the black knucklehead Tech Sargent in charge of our training contingent.Race had nothing to do with anything. One black was a despicable knucklehead and the other two blacks were commendable gentlemen.I have given reasons for not rejoicing over Obama. What more do you expect?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.