Are we prisoners of sin

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Actually in the bible the word sin comes from a verb (Hebrew- chata’ & Greek- hamarta′no) literally meaning miss, In the biblical sense it means'to miss the mark of the perfect standard of God'. So i dont think you can say that it is purely a religious concept.

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Actually the word sin does not come from the Hebrew word. It was the English word chosen to best represent the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words. The word sin comes from the OE word synn. Etymology of sinSome NT authors provide their understanding of what sin is. Notice this author says that not all sin leads to death.So a Christian commits a sinful act if he breaks any secular laws and any laws of his religion.A nonreligious person only commits a wrong when he breaks a secular law.So a nonreligious single woman who gets pregnant and is not married is not doing anything illegal.A religious single woman who gets pregnant and is not married is committing a sin, if her religion deems it wrong to have sex outside of marriage.Sin is a very old term kept alive by the religious and not used by the nonreligious. The nonreligious are only accountable to the laws of the land, not the laws of a religion.

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but now you are adding something that is not a christian teaching.
If Jesus was not perfect as the scriptures say, then his sacrifice cannot save anyone. Yet we are told that his sacrifice covers the sins of all mankind and thru his sacrifice all mankind can be reconciled again to God.

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Mark may omit that detail, but other christian writers do not.
You cannot get a full picture if you dont take all scripture into account.

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Actually Christian teaching added something that wasn't Biblical. Jesus was not a sacrifice to forgive all sins. That is Paul's teaching, not Jesus. Jesus taught repentance. That's all that is needed.Yes you do need to take all scripture into account to get the big picture, that's why I pointed out that per the OT God did not require sacrifices. Even if you want to hang onto sacrifices, the sacrificial system did not cover intentional sins.Even before Jesus was born the Jews argued about the sacrificial system. Reformers wanted to do away with the burden of a costly system. Paul tried a different approach. Ultimately the sacrificial system didn't end until the destruction of the Temple.

thank you for the clarity on that
'It was the english word chosen to best represent...' thats a much better way of saying it that i'll have to remember. if we were speaking ancient hebrew we would not be so confused...it would simply be an error toward law

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the conscience was pre programmed for Adam & Eve. They had a strong sense of what was right and wrong which is why, when they disobeyed, they hid themselves from God because they were afraid. Their inbuilt conscience told them that they had done wrong. They did not need to be told, they just knew.

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You're adding again. The story does not tell you that they had a strong sense of right and wrong. They hid themselves only after they ate from the tree with the knowledge of good and evil because then they knew what was right and wrong.

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Thats true to a degree. Kids are not pre programmed to know right and wrong, we have to teach them...this shows we do not live by instinct like other animals.

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There are animals that teach their young. Humans do have survival instincts, but laws of a society must be taught.

Dear onifre your questions are valid and I have answered them below: The bible isn't clear about other sins that the first couple could have committed, but maybe due to their perfect sinless nature and lack of knowledge when it came to issues of wrong and right they were less prone to commit the other sins. Let's go through the Ten Commandments to determine which sins the couple could unknowingly commit:

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate me,

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The couple would not be able to commit anyone of these sins seeing that they were in direct contact with God, they knew without a shadow of doubt he existed. The reason that people have over the centuries invented idols and gods was a result of reaching out to a god, but Adam and Eve had no reason to reach out to God in this way because he was right there with them.

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Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah thy God in vain; for Jehovah will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work;
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto Jehovah thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

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These are commandments the couple was just not likely to break. Due to their sinless nature and lack of evil knowledge the couple wouldn’t be able to come up with cusses, or cusswords, God does not forbid the using of His name, Christians always use his name to glorify Him cast demons out and the like, but if one misuses his name and mingles it with cusswords then it becomes a sin. God forbid against the using of his name as a cussword and misusing it inappropriately.

Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is thy neighbor's.

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Murder did not even cross the couple’s mind, they were pure and sinless, imagine a baby or a toddler, murder is just not a thing that crosses their minds, Adam and Eve most likely possessed the innocent mentality of little children, or probably even more innocent. The same applies to the command about stealing and adultery, and also coveting and being jealous. About adultery though little children of the opposite sex will usually be nude in front of each other without developing dirty thoughts, plus the couple didn’t lust after the flesh because lusting is a consequence of a unholy sinful mind.

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(2) If Adam doesn't know what a "sin" is, or that it is a "bad" thing, how can he be considered a sinner at all? Wouldn't a sinner be someone who consciously goes against a known rule for selfish reasons?

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The couple however knew what the penalty is for disobeying God; he knew that it wasn’t wise to disobey God, seeing that God had attached a dire warning to His command. The couple was tempted, Satan would only require tempting if the couple could not be easily convinced. But one can already see in Eve’s response that they knew that they weren’t suppose to eat fruit from this tree, they were warned about it. But they chose to disobey God’s command and ate the fruit anyway. So the couple was without an excuse, to be sure God isn’t an unreasonable being, he wouldn’t punish the couple for something they didn’t at all know was wrong. He is a just God.

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Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

Paul and other christian writers used the OT Messianic prophecies and attributed their fullfilment to Jesus... they didnt invent anything new, they applied the existing prophecies to Jesus.some examples are found in Acts 8:26-40 where it reports that when the Ethiopian eunuch said that he did not know the identity of the Servant of Isaiah’s prophecy in Is 53:7-8, Philip pointed out that it was pointing to Jesus.At Isaiah 53:4-6 we read "...But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us...'Math 8:16But after it became evening, people brought him many demon-possessed persons; and he expelled the spirits with a word, and he cured all who were faring badly; 17that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying: "He himself took our sicknesses and carried our diseases."1Peter 2:21In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely. 22He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 23When he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously. 24He himself bore our sins in his own body upon the stake, in order that we might be done with sins and live to righteousness. And "by his stripes YOU were healed."here Mathew and Peter were quoting from Isaiah 53 and applying the messianic prophecy to Jesus. So they were not adding anything to scripture, they were showing how Jesus fulfilled existing scripture. im not sure how you come to that conclusion??? the whole jewish system was based on sacrificial blood. The high priest role was to offer the sacrifices on the alter.
Even Mary (jesus mother) presented her sin offering at the temple as per the mosaic law. thats right, it did end with the destruction of the temple. But it ended for Christians before that time. The apostle Paul considered this very question about sacrifices and provided this answer in Galatians 3:19-24,"Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made ... Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ." The animal sacrifices under the Mosaic Law typified a greater sacrifice that the Messiah would give as mentioned in Isaiah 53. This is why the system of scrifice ended when jesus died on the stake. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

no, im not adding.
Gen 3:8-11 shows how they hid themselves in the garden because they were afraid. God then askes them if they had eaten from the fruit of the tree and the man points to his wife and blamed her.So this shows that the man had a conscience that told them they had done wrong. If they did not know they had done wrong then they would not have hid from God, nor would they have been afraid. They knew beforehand because their conscience told them so.

Saved not by being a blood sacrifice to atone for sins. Saved by calling the people who are sinning to repent. Since God did not command sacrifices, Jesus cannot be a sacrificial offering to atone for sin.

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Now regard the following verses Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; Thus everyone is in want of salvation, what is the meaning of Matthew 9:12, The Pharisees considered themselves to be righteous and most likely reasoned that if Jesus’ claims about himself were true that he was sent down by God then he rather should have mingled with them instead of those folks they considered sinners. But we know according to the revelation given to Paul by God that no man is righteous Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one; Jesus was simply demonstrating the purpose of his coming, that he did not come to spend hours reasoning with religious folk in synagogues but that he came to go into the world and meet the sinner at his level.

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All have sinned. Yes everyone makes mistakes and needs to repent. What is difficult about that?Romans 3:10 is a line from a centuries old song (Psalms). So the concept that no one can do good, no one is righteous is pulled out of context from centuries old songs which are written about the people's feelings in a specific time frame concerning the wicked not everyone. The songs are also not God speaking. See Message 89Jesus said the righteous, not those that think they are righteous.

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Now consider 1Kings 8:46 If they sin against thee (for there is no man that sinneth not), and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive unto the land of the enemy, far off or near;; Ecc 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. So yes everyone has sinned and fallen short of God’s glory, thus we are going to die (the second death the condemns to hell) Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

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Not sure what you point is with these. 1 Kings 8:46-51 is part of Solomon's prayer to God. He asked that God forgive them when the people repent and have their conquerors show them mercy. Solomon is only talking about the Hebrews, not the whole world.Ecc 7:20 is also not God talking. The author is giving his perception of his world.Ezekiel 18:4 is a correction of 18:1-3 IOW, God is saying the only the person who commits the sin will suffer the consequences or punishment. Read further from verse 5 on God explains his point. Also notice that the wicked man has a chance to turn away. (18:21-22) Reading further you will see that if the righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin then he will suffer for those sins and all his righteousness is forgotten. BTW, this chapter in Ezekiel also is the reason Jesus is not a sacrifice for our sins. Another person cannot pay for our sins. The one who sins is the one who pays.If your point is that physical death is always the consequence of sin, this chapter counters that thought. If a wicked man has time to repent and become righteous, then all sins do not carry the penalty of death. So they aren't really talking about a literal physical death for every sin and Paul wasn't either.Try reading whole paragraphs, chapters, books and don't rely so much on one line.So what point are you making in relation to the topic?

I explained that. By 3:8 they had already eaten from the tree of knowledge so now they knew they had done wrong. The story does not show they knew right from wrong before they ate from the tree.

The way that I see the story, be it literal, allegorical, or symbolic, is that before the snake incident, humans were not aware of the definition of evil except in terms of disobedience.The conscience arose from being willfully disobedient.

im curious how you can get around it... If God did not command sacrifices, why do see it commanded in the Mosaic Law?

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Exodus 29:35"And you must do this way to Aaron and his sons according to all that I have commanded you. You will take seven days to fill their hand with power. 36And you will offer the bull of the sin offering daily for an atonement, and you must purify the altar from sin by your making atonement over it, and you must anoint it to sanctify it. 37You will take seven days to make atonement over the altar, and you must sanctify it that it may indeed become a most holy altar. Anyone who touches the altar is to be holy."

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Im not sure where you're going with this.Previously, they relied on God for knowledge of right and wrong but afterward they relied on themselves for that knowledge which is why they suddenly decided that nudity was bad.anyway, if you'd like to elaborate on what point you're trying to make, that would be appreciated.

The bible is called the word of God, and all of it, all, not portions, but all of scripture, from Genesis 1 to Revelations 22 is God's Word. All of it is useful for teaching and helping people and for correcting them and showing them how to live.- 2Ti 3:16. When the prophets spoke and wrote they did so under the inspiration of the holy ghost.2Ti 3:16 "Everything in the Scriptures is God's Word..."So for you to try and dictate with your natural mind that a particular verse is uninspired and for that reason doesn't retain the truth or not at least all of the truth is, is ungodly. But as Christians we consider the entire bible to be God breathed and God inspired and not just portions of it.Every verse that I have presented is inclusive nobody is left out, all have sinned, all are sinners, no one is righteous, no one does good. This are verses referring to the entire human population, if they weren't they would have read something to these effect; only some have sinned not everyone has sinned for there are righteous man who haven't sin and what have you. But you are at liberty to interpret the bible as you wish, but like I already have pointed out, your interpretation is exactly your interpretation,uninspired of the Holy Ghost. Only the Holy Ghost can reveal biblical truths and no natural man can unravel God's word using his own understanding.And the bible does teach that Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice for sin. If you read all of it and not just some that chime with your ideas.

The conscience arose from being willfully disobedient.
Phat I would agree with Peg when she says that God was the source of what is good and what is evil before Adam and Eve ate the fruit. He would have corrected them, but as I have also pointed out above they were less likely to commit sin due to their innocent childlike nature. But I will agree with you that human's were not aware of the definition of evil except in terms of disobedience.

hi Phat, that could be partly true in that they had never experienced the effects of sin because neither of them had previously engaged in sin...so their conscience had never known it.They did however know that eating from the tree would lead to death. That can be seen by eves conversation with the serpent. She knew that she wasnt allowed to eat from it and that they would die if they did. We have never lived without sin and its effects so it's hard to imagine what their experience was.