'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

"The Son of Man coming in His kingdom" = (Transfigutration + Second Coming at the end of the age).Heretic asks again and again and again "Does Revelation 1:17 refer to the end of the age ?"Yes, I think so. I suppose he feels that that somehow makes "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" not include the Transfiguration.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Quoting a Matthew 25:31-46 Eric challenges What it refers to is told in verse 31: " .... WHEN ... the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, AT THAT TIME He will sit on the throne of His glory." And in Matthew 16:28 "the coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom" refers to the transfiguration and the Second Coming of Christ.Now who do you want to believe, Heretic or the Apostle Peter ?Let's go back once more and see what Peter said about the experience of the transfiguration: Readers, you decide who you want to believe. Heretic says that the transfiguration CANNOT be the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, even in preview or in minature. He thinks that Revelation 1:17 and Matthew 25:31-46 prove that.Peter on the other hand associates the POWER AND COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST with the event that they eyewitnessed "while we were with Him in the holy mountain".You decide whether you think you should believe the Apostle Peter who was one of the standing eyewitnesses to the transfiguration or whether Heretic has the inside story on it that we should trust.I'll stand with the Apostle Peter. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There are 28 verses in the 16th chapter of Matthew.
The phrase "coming on clouds" does not appear in the 16th chapter of Matthew.You do have in verse 27 this - "For the Son of Man is to come in glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will repay each man accoding to his doings."If the Son of Man comes in the glory of His Father on the mountain for some living disciples to see and some few thousand years latter He comes in the glory of His Father WITH the holy angels judging the living nations, is it ONLY the second phase "the Son of Man coming in His kingdom"?How did Peter feel about it? He included the transfiguration as the power and coming of the Lord Jesus Christ even though the judgment of the living nations did not occur at that time.

EMA,I saw the post and will comment on the interesting question over there latter.

John10:10, let me ask you a question about this comment of Heretic: When Jesus says that heaven and earth would pass away before His words would pass away (Matthew 24:35), does that imply to you that His words will be irrelevant in 10 to 20 years after He spoke them ?

The time frame for Matthew 24:35 anytime from the time the words were spoken until the passing away of the heavens and the earth.Within that timeframe, the words He has just spoken will still be trustworthy, reliable, and dependable. The phrase "heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away" signal that "this generation", however long it should exist, should realize that His words will not fail. This is nothing more than an excuse to have a rational not to listen to the words of Jesus. It is a unbeliever's rational to cast aside the words of Christ.But for believers it is a nonsensical proposition.Jesus says "They they will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations becaise of My name."For Christians under persecution this should be a word of forewarning and encouragement ANY time down through the centries it has applied.For some skeptic to claim to the Christian public "But those words do not apply to you" is completely foolish and should be disregarded.Jesus says "Behold, I tell you beforehand" (v.25)For the skeptic to inform the Christian public that being told beforehand applies to first century Christians but not to subsequent believers is pure foolishness.Jesus says "Therefore if they say to you, Behold, He is in the wilderness, do not go forth; Behold, He is in the inner rooms, do not believe it." (v.26)To advize any Christian believers that these words should be disregarded because they did not concern them, even until today, is utter nonsense.They are still morally reliable advice. If Heretic has no use for them it does not mean that today's Christians do not need them.Jesus says "Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is comes." (v.42) The warning is as appropriate now as ever before. Only the unbeliever has no interest in them because the unbelievers has no sense of the seriousness of Christ coming upon him in his sins.Jesus says "Blessed is the slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing [serving faithfully]. Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions. {v.47)This moral and spiritual warning also is applicable to any Christian "you" at any time. Only a fool would say "Those words applied only to the immediate audience of Jesus. They have not relevance to my Christian life today 2000 years latter."Jesus says "For this reason you also be ready because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming" (v.44)Heretic would have Christians of today disregard this warning as not relevant in 2010 AD because the audience has died long ago. This is utter foolishness.Jesus taught us to build our house upon the rock of His words. The flood, the storm, the wind would not topple the house built on the rock of His words. But to not build our house on His words was akin to building a house on sand. The wind, the rain, the rising river would topple the house foolishly built upon the sand.Throughout the Gospel of Matthew then, to base our Christian life upon the words of Jesus, whether we were present when He spoke or not, is to wisely build our house upon the solid rock of His teachings. (Matthew 7:24-27)First of all the words in Matthew 24 will NOT disappear even if heaven and earth SHOULD do so: "Heaven and earth will pass away, BUT MY WORDS SHALL BY NO MEANS PASS AWAY." (Matt. 24:35) His words will never disappear, never pass away.Secondly, this is what is said in Matthew 5:17-19Notice that Jesus did not say that the PROPHETS speaking would pass away. He only mentioned "one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away from the law ..."He did not say from the law and the prophets.After the millennial kingdom the old heaven and the old earth will pass away when the new heaven and new earth come in Rev. 21:1; Hebrews 1:11-12; 2 Peter 3:10-13). What is covered by the law extends only to the end of the millennial kingdom, whereas what is covered by the prophets extends to the new heaven and new earth (Isaiah 65:17; 66:22).This is why both the law and the prophets are refered to in verse 17, but only the law, not the prophets, is mentioned in v. 18.And the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 24 is to be trusted as never to fail regardless who in the audience should expire.Certainly, Peter, the virtual leading disciple of the 12, when informed by Christ that he would die soon, did nothing to inform the disciples they therefore should disregard the glorious second coming of Christ.Lately, Heretic realizing that this is so, has resorted to accusing instead that Peter's epistle is forgery. Why am I not surprised?One more "you" sentence ... "Blessed are YOU when they reproach and persecute YOU, and while speaking lies, say every evil thing against YOU because of Me.

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Rejoice and exult, for YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for so they persecuted the prophets who were before YOU." (Matt. 5:11,12)These also are words of Jesus which have preserved the Christains down through the centries. Why listen to Heretic that they may not apply to the Christians of 2010 "the year of our Lord" (A.D.) And after the resurrection Jesus told the 11 apostles plus Matthias "But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and unto the uttermost parts of the earth." (Acts 1:8)The Apostle Paul was not among them. In fact as a young rabbi Saul he was dead set against them to persecute the Christian church to the death. Yet not being in the audience did not stop him from also receiving the Holy Spirit and the power to be a witness of Jesus Christ to the world.Its a good thing after he became a discple he didn't dismiss the Lord's promise as only relevant to the immediate audience on that day.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

One thing we Christians know about the book of Revelation is that it is communicated to us in SIGNS (Rev. 1:1) . That is many of the truths revealed in it are in symbolic pictures.For example, in Revelation 19 Jesus Christ returns to the earth to battle at Armegeddon on a white horse accompanied by an army of overcoming believers. And His name is the Word of God. "And He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and His name is called the Word of God" (Rev. 19:13).The impact of the sign is that regardless of how long it took for Him to return, He did faithfully do so according to His promise. He descends and His garments get sprinkled with the blood of the enemies of God who He crushes. And His name is called "the Word of God" .Heaven and earth may pass away but His words shall not pass away. "Coming" is actually PAROUSIA in many places in the New Testament and denotes a presence. His "coming" is not so simple.For example, before He is seen on the cloud in Revelation 14 He is concealed and clothed with a cloud in Revelation 10. Both are a part of His PAROUSIA.This means that Jesus will hover close to the earth for a time, concealed in a cloud. And then after a period of time He will become visible upon the cloud. So His second coming is rather involved.Compare Revelation 10:1 with Revelation 14:14 with Revelation 18:1.First you must realize that Jesus Christ, in Revelation, because the book was made known in "signs" (Rev. 1:1) sometimes uses "Another Angel" to symbolize Christ.In Revelation 10:1 Christ is concealed in a cloud - "clothed with a cloud" in a near by secretive way. Then in Revelation 14:14 the Son of Man is made visible sitting on the cloud. Finally in Revelation 18:1 He comes down to the earth and "the earth was illuminated with His glory" (18:1)The three stage progression is all a part of His coming. So the coming of the Lord Jesus is a little involved with different stages.
And this is why we have seemingly paradoxical aspects to His coming.On one hand it is secretive and know one knows the hour. On the other hand is it public and tumultuous and accompanied by global calamities which cannot pass unnoticed.The point here is that the PAROUSIA of Christ is more inolved than we might initially imagine. This corresponds to Him seated ON the cloud in Revelation 14. However in the same book He warns a number of times that if the Christians do not watch He will come upon them in a surprise way. "Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and keep it and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you shall by no means know at what hour I will come upon you." (Rev. 3:3) Preparation for the return of Jesus is not simply a matter of looking at the calender and the clock. One must be ready, vigilant, watchful, and morally prepare to immediately appear before Him.A thief does not announce his arrival with loud noises. And a thief comes to steal what is precious. So it is dangerous to over simplify the second coming of Jesus. And it is dangerous to be complacent or only assume that when loud noises come and the heavens shake then we can get ready to meet Him.Herein is some of the problem with Heretic's natural minded and simplified attitude about the second coming of Christ. See what I mean?All Heretic understands is the more outward and objective phenomena. This to him is the essence of the Second Coming of Christ.Not to deny that these things of the more outward nature are indeed true, they are not all that Jesus spoke. He also spoke of being ready for He is coming suddenly like a thief and we could be caught off guard. We have to LIVE as if He could suddenly snatch us up to Heaven at any moment. No clouds, no trumpet, no angels ... only a sudden kidnapping as Enoch just disappeared one night.Since both aspects of His coming are taught by Him it proves at the very least that His coming will include elements of unpredictable surprise. And we have to supplement our ignorance of the details with right living in His presence in a life that He approves of. Heretic, as an unbeliever (we hope one day he becomes a believer) still only picks up the outward, the spectacular, the impossible to miss.I warn any Christrian studying about the second coming of Jesus. His first coming had some rather "tricky" aspects to it.The One called a Nazarene was born in Bethlehem. He was born there and quickly removed to Egypt. He returned from Egypt and was raised in Nazareth. His first coming was a little "tricky".The Pharisees, who knew the prophecies so well, didn't seem interested enough even to go see in Bethlehem to see. At least there is no record that any went. Some shepherds were interested.The first coming of Christ included some aspects which the established religious organization did not expect. Do you think there will be no surprises in the manner of His second coming ?We have today an even stronger religious establishment then they had. For this reason only the proper living in the Spirit of Christ moment by moment will not be caught off guard. And that regardless of how much we know about trumpets and clouds, earthquakes and stars "falling". Reader, I would ask you. However ELSE would Jesus tell ALL people something ?And how does Heretic know that even though that high priest is long dead he will not, from Hades, still "see" the Son of Man "from now on ... sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven" ?This complaint turns out not to be any "kicker" at all. It is a insignificant matter that the high priest whom Jesus was standing before has died. One way or another he will see the Son of Man at the right hand of Power coming on the clouds of heaven. This is at the end of the millennial kingdom. Before that judgment, the saints of Christ have already been judged as to what their position would be in the millennial kingdom.Even before Christ descends to the earth He excercises a judgment to determine which Christians will accompany Him to Armageddon and which will not.He comes to the earth like Gideon. That is with a smaller remnant of overcoming ones, a minority selected for the honor of accompanying Him to the destruction of Antichrist.Proof of this of course can be forthcoming to any interested. My only point here is that Christ has a judgment before the Great White Throne jugment of Revelation 20. In fact both the judgment of Matthew 24:31-46 and the judgment seat of Christ for the believers preceed the judgment of the great white throne in Revelation 20. Here again we have this matter soon.I solemnly assure you all. When Jesus comes again most people will think it is TOO soon rather than TOO late. Looking into the matter of judgments in more detail it is apparent that everyone is judged. However everyone is not judged at the same time. It has been 2000 years at least since Jesus ascended to the right hand of God. And we who believe into Him have been enjoying and living by His indwelling presence.Remember that He said in Matthew that He would be with His believers always, even to the consummation of the age.So what about this matter of "SOON". The coming of Jesus is also at anytime a person dies. "And inasmuch as it is reserved for men to die once, and after this comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27)Heretic should ask himself, if his soul was required of him this evening, would he not feel that he is about to meet God too soon rather than too late? "I come quickly" has a subjective element to it. Quickly and "soon" in this sense cannot be strictly determined by the calender. It involves a moral element. And that is why there were so many accompanying teachings and parables for the Lord's people to be READY and not be caught not ready to meet Him.Simply being saved and forgiven is not enough to be prepared to meet Him. All the passages practically say He returns in "the future".It is just that Heretic wants to assume he can dictate how much future should pass. It is not up to Hereitic to dictate how much time should elapse.All Heretic should be concerned about is to watch and be ready. Believing into Christ in the first place should preceed this. But Heretic said he was undecided about the resurrection so I assume he has not yet believed that Jesus is alive and available to be his Lord and Savior.As an unbeliever and skeptic he wants to be an expert on the Second Coming of Christ. The high priest dying does not necessarily interfer with this.And Jesus was speaking to a collective and aggregate you which would include all of Israel. In the book of Revelation the Sixth Seal unviels cataclyism seen in the heavens. Following the opening of the sixth seal there are still the seven trumpets.The great tribulation lasts three and one half years. Sometime after the time of the celestial calamities witnessed in the opening of the sixth seal and after the sounding of the seven trumpets and the pouring out of the seven bowls Christ descends to the earth.I expect that natural calamities will evolve into supernatural calamities. And sometime at the end of a three and one half year great tribulation, Christ's visible and public descent to the holy land will occur.But the way all the teachings come from His lips, we are to be ready and watching at ALL times. So there is surely to be some element of surprise in His PAROUSIA, His "coming".How "immediate" is "immediatly" cannot be dictated to us even by the apostles let alone by a skeptical unbeliever. A thief however, does not come with a loud commotion. Rather a thief comes with stealth, suddenly, to steal something precious.Since Jesus told us He is coming with a unmistakable accompanying signs in which can hardly be missed AND He warns us that He comes like a stealthy thief, His return will some element of surprise in it.Since we do not know exactly how it will all come down, we have to supplement our ignorance with vigilance and victorious spiritual living by His indwelling grace. The jist of Heretic's interpretation comes down to this - ignore the teaching of Jesus Christ because it is not true. He failed to keep His promise to return right around the corner, soon, immediately.That is the bottom line of what he is getting at. He is an unbeliever seeking to prove that the words of Christ should be dismissed.Never has anyone labored so carefully at words for the purpose of ignoring them.In the mean time we review again Peter's exhortation (which Heretic of course has to now dismiss as forgery) Christ has not returned physically to the earth yet. At the most this has been in God's eyes a two day delay so far.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If you wish to point out that I am not always consistent, I would agree. I am not.However, a good debate style is not that you are trying to persuade the counter party of your argument. Rather you are trying to persuade the audience of your argument.In that case you do use third person. If you do not believe me check a lot of YouTube debates.However, I am not always consistent. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't think I am ignoring any words. We have a different view on the meaning of the word "generation" Matthew 24:34. What passage would you like me to "pick and choose" ? I think I have discussed each passage you have submitted.Which one have I not commented on? Let's let Jesus answer this question directly. Do you have a passage saying "What I say to you, I do [NOT] say to others after you. Watch!"? I don't think at any point I have not been honest.In Matthew chapters 24 and 25 Jesus is talking to His disciples. In verses 4 through 31 His emphasis is on the disciples as also members of the Jewish population. In verses 32 through 25:30 His emphasis is on the disciples as representatives of the new covenant church.In addition He is speaking to anyone who has an ear to hear Him. Mark 13:37 about what He says to the disciples He says to all is virtually the same exhortation as in Matthew 25:42 and 25:13. It is all about the disciples' preparation for His coming again to them. What I read is "And immediately after the tribulation of those days ..."I think He is saying immediately after the great tribulation. I don't think He meant immediately after ANY tribulation.Over the course of two thousand years there have been a number of times of tribulation for Christians. There are likely to be more. Some are in tribulation right now.Immediately after the great tribulation which is unlike any other in history, is what I think Jesus meant there. What we are not told is specifically how much time will elapse between His discourse and the great tribulation which is like no other.You say "one generation". But I think the meaning of "generation" is not the meaning as you see it there. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Me: Eric: The disciple Peter asked if the teaching about readiness applied ONLY to the immediate audience or to others. Here is the answer section which Heretic should not be ignoring: When Peter asks for whom this advice of readiness should apply Jesus does not talk about timeframe at all. The answer is "that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing." Timeframe is irrelevant. Only readiness, faithfulness, and vigilance is relevant. Only knowing the master's will and being about it is relevant. And this is further emphasized in 47: There is nothing here about the calender, the time, the date, or any timeframe. What is crucial is knowing the will of the Master the Lord Jesus and acting accordingly.Please compare Luke 12:40 with Mark 13:37:Should then a Christian follow a teaching that the coming of Christ is either failed to happen, not going to happen, or already happened? A sober minded Christian would never be enfluenced by such a teaching.And this is the essence of Heretic's teaching. That is in the year 2010 A.D. exhortations from Christ about His coming are no longer relevant. According to Heretic Christ is not speaking to Christians of today because of some timeframe.How can a follower of Jesus go along with such a false teaching?Rather, Christ's exhortation about false teachers and false prophets, no matter WHEN they may arise, should be heeded: As long as there is the inhabited earth in which to spread the gospel of the kingdom, the Christian has service to the Master to attend to until He comes: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Heretic continues: I expect now to see specific evidence of "twisting". Anyone can make vague accusation. No evidence yet of "twisting" and Heretic makes another vague accusation which more reflects on his own laziness. Okay, now we have Heretic's alledged evidence of twisting. I do not recall "around the corner" as a biblical phrase at all. The word "near" sounds familiar.To this charge of twisting the meaning of the word "near" I would again bring Heretic back to the apostle Peter's words. And this is perhaps the third time in 2 Peter 3:8,9This is written to disciples. Heretic would probably read it as "Please let this one thing ESCAPE you". Since Eric (aka Heretic) proudly announces to the public that he intends to spread "heresy", the twisting is more likely to come from his side.
Why else would he fore-warn the Forum readers? Of course throughout this debate Heretic would insist that there is delay. My attitude about the longer than expected "nearness" of Christ's second coming is in tune with the Apostle Peter's attitude.However, Heretic still has a weak case about the word near. Jesus said that when we see certain things happen, then His coming was "near." The "nearness" is in relation to certain happinings. "So when you see all these things, know that it is near, at the doors." (Matt 24:32)Has Heretic, me, or the 12 disciples for that matter ever see the sun darkened and the moon not give its light and the stars fall from heaven (v.29)? These are some of the things Jesus said when they are seen know that the end is "near" Now we have seen "false Christ". And we have seen "false prophets". However, these signs of the end being near probably were accumulative. He probably didn't mean that any ONE of them was the signal but accumulatively all were the signal of nearness.The issue with the word "near" in Matthew 24:31 and 32 is that Christ cost certainly "near" all of the preceeding events and not necessarily "near" to any one of them. I am not sure where the word "soon" appears in the discourses of Jesus. But while the Heretic accuses me of ignoring passages he fails to pay adaquate attention to some.Jesus ALSO says a few things so that the disciples will not regard the end as coming prematurely. " ... but the end is not yet" (Matt. 24:6)"All these things are the beginning of birth pangs" (v.8)(Notice, not the END of birth pangs, but the beginning) " ... he who has endured to the end shall be saved" (v.13)This cannot be overlooked as a preparation for long term endurance. "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come." (v.14)The "nearness" or "sooness" of this climax cannot be definitely defined. "tribulation ... such as has not occured from the beginning of the world until now, ..." (v.21)This is difficult to pinpoint when this tribulation is. There have been many sore tribulations in history. Therefore the word "near" remains ambiguous. There have been many sore tribulations. How can we insist that anyone of them alone was THE tribulation that signaled the end times? "But learn the parable from the fig tree: As soon as its branch has become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is near." (v.32)Many serious students of prophecy believe that fig tree is a symbol here of the nation of Israel. Israel became a nation again in 1948. All we could say was the reformation of Israel as a nation could be a sign not of the end necessarily but that "summer is near".Myself personally, I think the rebuilding of the Jewish temple in Israel will be an even stronger indication of the "nearness" of the second coming of Christ.The bottom line here is that Heretic has no way to insist that "near" has come and gone. The verses above indicate that He was concerned that the disciples would not prematurely anticipate the end of the age.How else do you understand the phrase " See that you are not alarmed, for it must happen' but the end is not yet." (v.6)Possibly the expected Him to come before they died. But Peter was a disciple and when Jesus made known to him that he was about to die, Peter left exhortations to the disciples along the line of the epistle of Second Peter .Who do you think has the better inside story of what Jesus taught, Heretic or the Apostle Peter? This is now repetition ad infinitum, ad nauseum. I don't feel to repeat rebuttals over and over again endlessly.Heretic's case is simply not as sturdy as he thinks. Repetitions already discussed. Let me skip down a bit. The phrase "around the corner" is not in the dialogue of Jesus as far as I remember.We do see the phrase "at the doors" in Matthew 24:33. See verses 32-34. Jesus says when they or we see "all these things" know that it is near, at the doors.We have to see "all these things". He does not say anyone one of these things by itself. And "all these things" includes some things not seen yet like the celestial phenomenon mentioned in verse 29.Skipping down ... If traveling by horse and buggy maybe not. If traveling by jet plane, maybe yes. Whether apologetics at its worse or not, my interpretation is more in line with what Peter wrote. Remember Peter was the virtual leader of the 12 disciples and was one of the ones to witness the transfiguration.Who do you trust to have the clearer story on what Jesus meant, Heretic or the Apostle Peter?Not being able to deny that Peter, near to his death, encourages the disciples to remember that time, in the eyes of God, is not as we may always regard, Heretic has no recourse but to call Second Peter a forgery.I will not re-answer anymore of Heretic's comments right now.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

And since the Lord Jesus warned of false prophets and the apostles warned of false teachers, I in turn have deleted some of your lies.

The latter words of Jesus after His resurrection are to be taken into account also: Heretic will most predictably ignore these words of Jesus for the following reasons:1.) They are spoken by Christ after His resurrection which Heretic probably does not believe happened.2.) They do not indicate that the disciples were told specifically about the length of "seasons" or the "times". Since these are left up to be unknowns to the disciples, it robs Heretic of his argument that the disciples knew.3.) He doesn't consider the preaching of the gospel to the whole inhabited world or to the uttermost parts of the earth to be important to the fulfillment of prophecy.4.) He doesn't think the Divine Father has the right to set in His own providence the timetable of the second coming. Heretic wants to dictate to God based on his interpretation of Matthew 24,especially how the word "generation" should be interpreted.In conclusion:The disciples ask the resurrected Jesus "Will you at THIS TIME ... ?" (bring in the Messianic kingdom on earth) . The answer of Jesus is basically something like this:"That's the business of the Father as to WHEN. You preach the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth."And that has been what has been going on for two millennia. And we have no idea how long it must continue. But if you ask me, I think the reformation of the nation of Israel could be a strong indication of the second coming of Christ.And if the temple should be rebuilt, that is to me an even stronger sign of His second coming. I have no idea whether that will be in my lifetime.I hope Jesus comes back as soon as possible for He is "the desire of the nations" . But my desire is not my knowledge of when the event will occur. And neither was it Peter's or John's or Paul's.Heretic's comments about some of my comments being not relevant or moot points just reveal to me his own sloppiness, laziness to really study all relevant matters, and lack of familiarity with the Bible.I will accept the charge of sometimes preaching. His case is too weak to refute either my discussion or my preaching. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Gragbarder,I am finished with Heretic. You haven't written as much so I respond to your last post. But the "WE" is not excluding other Christians not yet born.In 1 Thessalonians Paul also speaks of "whether WE watch or sleep, WE may live together with Him" (5:10) In this case in 1 Thess. WE = (those alive + those asleep).
Paul did not exclude himself from the WE because he was not dead. The use of the word "we" and "us" in either 4:15,17 or 5:9,10 does not prove that Paul is not talking also to we Christian believers who are not Thessalonians and are living in the year 2010 A.D.I was not living at the time of his writing, true, but ...
Do I not belong to the new testament church along with Paul?
Do I not belong to the same Body of Christ along with Paul ?
Do I not belong to the same family of believers with Paul?Sorry. I do. Therefore the Apostle Paul and I, "WE" are in the same Body.At the present time, Paul is no longer one of those "alive and left remaining". Should the Lord Jesus descend in my lifetime, Paul would be one of the Christians "fallen asleep" (v.14). "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him." (v.14)At time Paul was writing he was not one of the ones fallen asleep but was one of the ones "who are living".And as I pointed out before the "us", "we" and "our" in 5:9,10 should also be understood as including a group of people larger in scope then just the Thessalonians: "For God did not appoint US to wrath but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for US in order that whether WE watch our sleep, WE may live together with Him." (1 Thess. 5:9,10 my emphasis) It is ludicrous to presume that Paul meant that Christ had died for ONLY the Thessalonian recipents of his epistle. It is ridiculous to assume that only the Thessalonian Christians God wanted to live together with Christ.In the same way "we who are living, who are left remaining, will be caught up together with the them in the clouds" is not restricted to the Thessalonian audience. It applies to all of the ekklesiastical WE who are living and left remaining. Some of the WE will have fallen asleep. Some of the WE will not be left remaining. All belong to Christ as one Body.Whoever of the Body of Christ "WE" who happens to be alive and left remaining when Christ descends, will be caught up in the clouds. He died on the cross for us that we may live together with Him and He will come for us who are alive and are left remaining, to catch us up in the clouds.It is not necessary to point out the number of years in which the event will occur. Paul had no idea of the specific number of years until this event. It is open ended. The use of the word "we" does not insist that Paul knows that he WILL BE alive and left remaining when it takes place.This bears repeating: The fact that Paul said "we who are living, who are left remaining" does not insist that Paul knows that he, or his Thessalonian audience WILL BE alive and left remaining at the event.He simply does not know who of the universal church will be living and left remaining. But whoever of the "we" who are living and are left remaining will be caught to the Lord in the clouds when He comes. "Whether WE watch or sleep ..." (5:10) does not exclude Paul because he was not dead.Looking again at 1 Thess. 5:9-11:
It is illogical to say that Christ did not die for anyone else except Paul and the Thessalonians. And that only Paul and the Thessalonians did God intend to live together with Christ. If by "apocalypticist" you mean that Paul may have wanted, hoped, and even expected Christ to come in his lifetime, I do not save him from that.What he needs no saving from is the fact that he DID NOT KNOW when the second coming of Christ would happen. If he did please point out in the New Testament where Paul specifies the DATE of the event.I do not know the formal definition of your word "apocalypticist". But Paul can live in the expectation of the coming of Jesus any moment and still not be charged with KNOWING when it would happen. No. But the evidence is against you there.I think you should put away your Christian refuter book long enough to read the rest of the New Testament for yourself. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Ramoss, put away what I interpret for awhile. Examine Peter's attitude; John's attitude; and Paul's attitude. Look at their epistles.Then you have to decide if you think your insight into the words of Jesus are more to be trusted than thiers.Now if you want to say that yours is more reliable, that's your right. As for me though, I want to align my attitude about the whole matter with the attitude of these apostles. No I do not. Even from examining Matthew 24 and 25 and the sister passages in the other synoptics which together seem to relate to the same preaching, the evidence does nor confirm Heretic's view.And what essentially is that view? It is that the number of YEARS between when the Lord Jesus had that discourse and His second coming CANNOT be 2,000 years or more.A generation in the Bible can be 2,000 years or more long. It could not be in the typical sense of a person's physical lifetime. But it COULD be in the sense of "evil generation" or a generations characterized by a moral condition.As for those standing around not tasting death until the Son of Man is seen coming in His kingdom? Without skipping around to other passages, I showed that the mentioning of the Transfuguration, in each case, immediately afterwards, suggests that the INTENTION of the writers is to connect the event with the previous words.And I pointed out that Luke specifically says "And about eight days AFTER THESE WORDS ... " (Luke 9:28) .I think the best argument that was presented for Heretic's view is about going through the villages and Christ coming.It seems a valid point that some of the disciples expected John not to die before the second coming of Christ (John 21:23).
But the writer of the Gospel of John corrects their misunderstanding. Now, I do not dispute that the disciples WANTED and EXPECTED Jesus not to take 2000 plus years to return. But they didn't know when He would come. And those who wrote epistles prepared thier audience for the event should He take longer than they desired or expected.Do you see how they misunderstood the speaking of Jesus in relation to His second coming? "IF ... I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?"This is like Jesus saying "IF I want John to go to the Moon, so what? You follow Me?"In the same principle, Heretic is misundering the words of Jesus to be proof that His coming had to be under N number of years. Heretic has not specified what that N should be except he cannot believe N could be 2000 or over.But it could. And Peter reminds the Christians that it could in (1 Peter 3:8) . He seems to be referencing Psalm 90:4. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.