'Some still living' disproves literal truth of the bible

Very good. As a serious student of the Bible I also have to consider what ELSE the word of God says.Now here is teaching of Jesus stressing endurance for long haul until vindication of His coming: To the world the Christian church is just like a husbandless "widow". We know that our Lord Jesus lives. But to the worldly unbelievers it is like we are waiting for a dead husband. To the world the church is a bereaved "widow."The teaching arms the disciples for a long wait under persecution. They should not cease to pray and bother God. It may seem that God doesn't care about His word or fear the skeptics who say "See. He took too long. He's not coming."She is to come "continually" to seek vindication from the judge. Though the judge is long-suffering towards this widow, eventually the vindication WILL come.This is also seen in the book of Revelation of the martyrs underneath the altar crying out about how long it will take God to avenge their blood upon their murderers on the earth (Rev. 6:9-11).Jesus still says "And will not God by all means carry out the avenging of His chosen ones, who cry to Him day and night, though He is long-suffering over them?

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I tell you that He will carry out their avenging QUICKLY ...".This is "quickly" according to God's speed.
And the teaching arms the Christian church for the long distance run until His second coming.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Concerning your last post. I have not yet read the entire post. I STOPPED to respond to this which you keep harping on.You present to me A, B, C, D. I do not accept your A so why do you expect me to accept your B ?While you are going on and on about how I did not answer some question I concentrated on PREVIOUS points which you seem to expect me just to lay down and accept.Forget about it Heretic. That is why I told you when I am ready to talk about SIGNS I do so. First I attacked some of your preliminary assumptions.I was busy examinining some of your presuppositions. If it makes you feel good to repeat "You didn't answer my C. You didn't yet answer my C. You have not yet responded to my C. I have asked you 15 times now and you haven't talked about my C!"That's right. I was still busy correcting your A. I dealt with "this generation" until I was satisfied, not until YOU are satisfied.Get it?Now come back and complain that this is now the 38th time you asked me about something.Having said this. I did finally throw you a reply to the "SIGNS" definition at message 333. And you STILL proceeded to boast that you had received no reply.Now I am going back to see what else is in your last post.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Make up your mind. Either I am too verbose or I am lackluster.One of the most important aspects to the word SIGN in Matthew 24 is in verse 3: Sign, in this chapter, is therefore very much related to informing the disciples to the consummation of the age and of Christ's coming.Have I ever said anything different ? This better be good after all this fanfare.Your move. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Now we have been over this before. This is pure repetition.The thrust of your analysis is that in Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to no one else except those few disciples who came to Him privately. Your thesis rests on a strong assumption that Jesus could not be talking to anyone else.I reject your concept. And here is one reason why I reject your concept.How does the book of Matthew close ? ? THE END
FINIS
Last saying of Jesus in Matthew's Gospel.Did you get that hERICtic ? " ...TEACHING THEM ..." (including jaywill) " ... to observe ALL that I have commanded YOU." Can you PLEASE point out the additional word which says "EXCEPT, of course, My discourse in Matthew chapter 24 !"So we believers in Jesus say "AMEN" while you scramble around looking for reason that no one except the 12 should have listened to Jesus on the Mount of Olives that day.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It took me a while to get your question. It is rather sparse.But after consideration I think I agree with you. What relationship one has with the King and His kingdom is a very relevant consideration to this.I think you are on the right track.

I think that "sigh" is a totally inept response in this discussion to Matthew 28:20.I reject that it is off topic.
I reject that it is too much jumping around.
I reject that it is a strawman argument.
I reject that Matthew 28:20 is in any way irrelevant to the issue at hand.Now you can do whatever you want. For my part it is time for me to stop with you and see what some other posters would say.I'm through with you now.
Thanks for the discussion. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Anyone else want to talk with me about Matthew 24 ?Still here.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think this gospel of the kingdom entails all of the living matters spoken of in the book of Matthew. It would entail God obtaining a poeple living in the all the kingdom aspects spoken of in chapters 5 through 8, for example.I don't believe that it means every Christian on earth is living under the administration of the King. But it should mean that a good number are as overcomers.In other words a normal prevailing church life experience in many places in the inhabited earth.We can then command Christ to come back. We can petition Him strongly according to His desire and woo Him back, even command Him to come. I take into account the commanding prayers of binding and loosing that Jesus told His disciples to pray in chapter 18.The thought here is that in the end times there would be a remnant so under His administration that thier prayers become great corporate commandings of Christ to act.In that sense, we do not know when He comes. Yet the kingdom people take a great part in when He does come.

I agree. Don't think I mean differently from the gospel being spread.I would like to convey what I mean without misunderstanding. Perhaps the parable of the wheatt and the tares will help.In Matthew 13:24-30 which Jesus helps the disciples to understand in verses 36-43 Jesus says that the time of harvest is at the consummation of the age.This means that through the ages something is in the process of GROWTH. Before RIPENESS, before MATURITY it is not time for harvest. When the process of growth reaches a climax, then the harvest occurs.Now exactly what is growing ? Of course we could say that as the gospel is preached the NUMBERS of those being saved is growing. That would not be wrong to say that.But I think aside from the matter of numerical encrease there is the spiritual encrease of God's life growing within those who receive the gospel of the kingdom. Remember the parable of the sown word on the different kinds of soil. The seed was frustrated except on the good cultivated soil where it could bear fruit.The gospel SOWS the life of Jesus into people. The kingdom of the heavens results from the growth and maturity of that divine life in the saved.Jesus says in verse that after His angels remove the tares of the nominal and false Christians - "Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their father." (13:43)Remember now, this righteousness must be that which EXCEEDS the rigthteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. There is no hypocrisy in it. There is no religious facade or play acting. This righteousness is the growth and maturity of the kingdom life in the kingdom people.Along with the matter of numercial encrease of those hearing the gospel there is the need for the maturity of divine life in enough people to form an incentive for Christ to reap a Harvest.This is in agreement with Paul word to the church in Corinth: "I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the GROWTH.... For we [apostles] are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [farm], God's building." (1 Cor. 3:6,9) The new testament church should be a FARM for cultivating the GROWTH of Christ within Christian UNTO maturity.God causes the GROWTH. And the consummation of the growth in a good number according to His plan will trigger the Harvest of a mature crop on the earth. I will reply in another post.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Are you refering to this passage? "And at that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:30) We have no way of knowing what this sign is. It must, however, be supernatural and clearly visible. Maybe the lightening has something to do with it (v.27).I take all the tribes of the land to indicate the Jewish tribes in the land of Israel who will repent and mourn according to Zechariah 12:10-14 and Rev. 1:7.Do you mean a sign predating this matter ?Before the physical approach of Christ to the surface of the ground He is concealed in a cloud, hidden above the surface of the earth. My belief is that the natural world will convulse at His presence. But all earth people will not realize why. Some will realize that this probably means Christ is coming.By that time He is already near the earth but concealed in a cloud.So I am not sure what you mean by a sign which predates His visible appearing over the Holy Land.At present I believe that in Revelation 6:12-17 about the opening of the sixth seal are general supernatural signs in the universe that the age is about to change and Christ is near. It should be about three and one half years from the opening of the sixth seal that Christ physically sets His feet on the earth in the Holy Land.Those are signs [plural] predating the SIGN of His visible descent in Matt. 24:30.Having said that, I would say this which few Christians understand. Matthew 24:29-31 talks about Christ's coming at the END of the great tribulation. Before that event Christ will have already secretly snatched away a minority, a remnant of Christians who were ... WATCHING according to His warnings.I definitely believe in Selective Rapture before the great tribulation. Then those who are alive and left remaining at the end of the great tribulation who have passed through it because they were not watching and vigilant, will be taken in rapture at the end of the three and one half year great tribulation.That is why it appears in Matthew 24 that there is a noisy bosterous return of Christ on one hand and also a secretive stealthy return on the other.Forgive me for writing more than what you asked about. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Did you hear this one ?There in Post Tribulation. And there is Pre Tribulation. And there is Pan Tribulation.Pan Tribulation means that if you trust in Jesus everything will pan out alright !Pretty good huh? The problem I have with that is that in the New Testament the cross is mostly spoken of in reference to the denial of the self. But this is not how it is used in moat of Christiandom. In Christianity the cross is mostly used to mean the altar of sacrifice.But I dare say that if you looked up all the passages on the cross most of them would be about the denial of the old man. My opinion is (which I respect very much) is that a cross for a big sign is too much along the line of mainstream degraded Christianity.But I DON'T KNOW. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

We should in some way, expect to be surprised by the way in which He comes back. I mean we should expect that there will be some element of the unsuspected in His way.When Jesus came the first time, Judaism was largely caught off guard. Today we have a stronger religion then Judiasm, Christianity.If you think there will be no element of the unexpected to the religious minded, that would be unlike Him. Millions of Christians are going to be caught by some unexpected manner in which He comes bcak, even in glory.But if we are walking daily in the Spirit we will not be as surprised. As a matter of fact when He snatches some away to the throne in heaven it is only a change in physical location. Their hearts and their spirits are already there.I am not kidding even a little bit. I am quite serious. If we are found walking in the Spirit, saturated with His presence, and enjoying Him, when our bodies are removed to heaven it should only be a physical change of place. Inwardly, we are before Him already.Or at least we should be living that way. Would you like scriptural evidence for what I am saying ?

Based upon this you suspect the sign is the cross ?I don't know. How do I know ? If I am alive at that time I want to be taken by the Lord before there is any great visible sign. That is before great tribulation even begins.I think the dramatic sign is for the late train not the early train.

In the spiritual warfare rapture is a strategic advantage over the enemy. Far from being only an escape from something unpleasant it is a defeat to Satan, shortening his time.Not only so, but rapture is in obedience to Christ. To fail to be raptured could be an indication of disobedience. I do not say it is hopeless disobedience. But it could be an indicatio of not heeding the Lord's word. For He has told the church: "But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things and stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)His command is that the churching people should not only be watchful but beseech the Lord that they may escape the things mentioned and stand before the Son of Man.One day after taking this passage for granted, I realized that to be raptured before the great tribulation was to escape all these things and stand before the Son of Man. Then I appreciated that one should seek to be raptured in obedience to the Lord Jesus.Do not let anyone persuade you that rapture is not warfare in the spiritual realm. And do not let anyone persuade you that a pre-tribulation rapture of some of the Christians is not according to God's will and His command.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

True. And good reasoning.But, which represents the perfect will of the Lord ?If He tells the church that IF they fulfill certain conditions He will keep them from the hour of trial (Rev. 3:10) and some obey, would that not represent His first desire?Now if some fail to fulfill those conditions and pass through the hour of trail as prayer warriors, wouldn't that represent His second choice ? This is a conditional. "Because YOU have done something, I will keep you not only from the trial but from the hour of the trial."A conditional indicates that SOME will likely respond and SOME will likely fail to respond. This is a simple fact of life.Now I agree with you, that those who fail to keep the condition and have to pass through the hour of trial may ALSO learn spiritual warfare. The question is, did they do so in a timely manner according to the Lord's desire ? Or were they late in learning?Would not the spiritual warfare of fulfilling the condition to keep the word of His endurance and being kept from the hour of trial represent His first plan ?I do not mean to imply in any way a "second classness" of Christians. But to have to pass through the trial indicates to some degree, that the lesson of endurance had been postponed. Had the lesson of endurance been applied at the right time then there would not have been the passing through the hour of the world wide trial.Eager to see your response.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.