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Author | Topic: So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work? (SUM. MESSAGES ONLY) | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Hi Tesla,
Thanks for the correction, but the contradiction remains. Examine your two sentences again:
It doesn't matter what your definition of supernatural is, assuming you're not changing definitions in mid-stream again as with the parrot example. Saying that "Nothing is X" and "X is real" is contradictory.
Supernatural phenomenon: An observable occurrence, attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. You're misinterpreting this definition, which I think comes from the Oxford American Dictionary. When it says "beyond scientific understanding" it means *forever* beyond scientific understanding, in other words, beyond the ability of science to ever understand. It is not referring to a moving target of the current level of scientific understanding. Notice that it isn't referring to the *known* laws of nature, just the laws of nature. No one in science would ever refer to a natural phenomenon of unknown cause as supernatural. Take a lesson from your psychic friends at the websites you linked to. --Percy
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tesla Member (Idle past 1623 days) Posts: 1199 Joined: |
Thanks for the correction, but the contradiction remains. I believe I clarified the contradiction. All that remains is for you to understand it. I cannot force you to recognize what I am saying.
When it says "beyond scientific understanding" it means *forever* beyond scientific understanding, in other words, beyond the ability of science to ever understand. It is not referring to a moving target of the current level of scientific understanding. Notice that it isn't referring to the *known* laws of nature, just the laws of nature.
With this mentality, the moon would have always remained green cheese. Since in older times, it was a commonly held belief that science would never allow man to reach the capabilities to explain celestial objects. Were they not once held in common belief to be from supernatural origins? What is happening here is a butting head of beliefs, not science. Science reinforces the position that it will evolve to greater understanding. You can choose to believe as you wish. You might even rename currently held 'supernatural' phenomenon’s into the realm of natural and worthy of study as science progresses. Either way, why should I expect you to change your belief? You won’t. You’ll just be dogmatic and butt heads with those who don't agree with you. But you will not be able to convince anyone else that their belief is any more wrong than yours, and it will hardly aid science in understanding currently misunderstood events beyond our current understanding of physics. Doing that isn’t any different than someone who has chosen to believe in a personal savior. I can politely bow out of the conversation knowing that it is impossible to debate with individuals blind and dumb to any scrutiny that goes against the beliefs they have chosen to defend at any cost, regardless of the truth. keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is ~parmenides
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Thanks for the correction, but the contradiction remains. Examine your two sentences again:
It doesn't matter what your definition of supernatural is, assuming you're not changing definitions in mid-stream again as with the parrot example. Saying that "Nothing is X" and "X is real" is contradictory. I dunno... lets use Faith Healing as an example, with these possibilities:
I think that he would be taking the position of the last one, and if so then there isn't really a contradiction. Does that make sense?
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Sorry, no, and it doesn't seem consistent with what Tesla is saying, either.
--Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Hi Tesla,
Let's use your definition of the supernatural, that it represents what science doesn't currently understand. Given that definition, how is supernatural ID science supposed to work that is any different from how science already works. --Percy
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Sorry, no, and it doesn't seem consistent with what Tesla is saying, either. Why not? I think it does. Its consistant with all this:
quote: quote: quote: Like I said:
People are being healed, but its all natural - no supernatural, but real phenomenon
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Hi CS,
Thanks for trying to help, but it appears that placing text I've already read into closer juxtaposition isn't making it any more understandable for me. --Percy
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
tesla writes:
Wrong! That depends on the reader. My parrot is blue: depressed My parrot is not blue: [My parrot] is not the color blue. Don't you know what the meaning of blue is? Am I the only one that can speak English here? My parrot IS the colour blue!!My parrot IS NOT depressed!! Can't you understand English!!?!??! /caricature off .......and that is what your posts have been like.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
What's the problem?
Some people think that Faith Healing events are totally bunk and nothing is happening at all. Some people think that God is answering prayers. Tesla seems to be thinking that something is actually happening, but that its not something outside the laws of physics. What's so unclear about that? What are you reading that makes you think he's saying something differently?
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Let me guess, nobody on this site understands the definition of the word supernatural? supernatural/ˌso͞opərˈnaCH(ərəl/Noun: Manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin. Adjective: (of a manifestation or event) Attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. Then why do you define it as "ignorance"? Supernatural means that it can never be understood through science. This is quite different from your definition which states that it is currently not understood by science.
Oh no I get ityou believe all supernatural things will be explained as imagination. Or some other explainable reason that fits your ideology. The question in this thread is how supernatural explanations are supposed to work within science. So how does that work? Or can it?
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Taq Member Posts: 10085 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
The events are not fictional. So you are saying that the events, as you described them, really happened?
our ability to explain supernatural events can be considered fictional. But so can: dark matter, big bang theory, string theory, chaos theory, and any other theory not proven.
What is fictional about matter bending the path of starlight per the laws of relativity? What is fictional about this matter not absorbing or emitting light? Please explain.
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Catholic Scientist writes: Tesla seems to be thinking that something is actually happening, but that its not something outside the laws of physics. What's so unclear about that? That part is very clear, but weren't you also saying that what I thought was a contradiction isn't actually a contradiction at all? In looking at your Message 288 I was unable to see how your explanation resolved the contradiction. --Percy
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The phenomenon are real, and they are described as supernatural because they're currently unexplained, but they actually have natural explanations waiting to be discovered... They're not really supernatural.
Contradiction?
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
The contradiction in inherent. It doesn't matter how you define supernatural. Unless you change the definition between statements 1 and 2, something can't be both real and non-existent.
--Percy
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
The point is that "supernatural phenomenon" are not really supernatural.
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