Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice

Read my posts. I'm the one who's been advocating tolerance, acceptance and understanding right from the start. I've ben saying that if people are tolerated, accepted and understood as they are, they won't need to worry about wether they're "acting like a man" or acting like a woman" at all. Aybody who is contemplating taking his/her own life should be treated as somebody who is contemplating taking his/her own life. The reason for the desparation isn't particularly important. What neds to be fixed is the lapse in logic that concludes that suicide is the solution.

And that's what you're being asked for - to understand and accept that a woman is a woman, regardless of the birth configuration of her genitals. And that's specifically what you're rejecting. So pardon us if we find your invocation of "tolerance" somewhat hollow, since, in your case, it comes along with all the intolerant bullshit you've been spouting.

What I'm being asked to do is confirm that black is white and that Jim is Napoleon. It has nothing to do with tolerance. The word "woman" becomes meaningless if it's just something that somebody wants to be called.

It'll probably work best when applying for scholarships, right?Hey I totally FEEL like a black, native American, bi-sexual woman with a learning disability and I also FEEL slightly mentally challenged. Scholarship from every organization, pleaseeee!- Oni

Life saving? RealllyyyyDo you feel it should always be the case that doctors give in to the request of those threatening to kill themselves?If not, at what point should the doctor feel this person is not menatlly stable enough to make such drastic demands?If you do however feel they should give in to the request of those threatening to kill themselves then, well, you're crazier than I thought. - Oni

Gender, depending on the context, can mean both how someone identifies themselves AND their sex.Male and Female, in the context Panda was talkling about, means their sex. A male is the one with the penis, the female is the one with the vagina. It's all very simple, really, unless you're a seahorse.What you're talking about are gender roles in society, which can be anything you want. Like with the gays. You're a man playing the role of a woman, or vice versa. But you're not a female or a male just because you wanna be. Female and Male are specifically describing someones sex.- Oni

Do people get sex change operations simply because they have demanded it? I thought it took considerable medical and psychological evaluations in order to be accepted for such surgery.Are you telling me people in the US can wander into a clinic, demand to have their genitals removed because they think they might prefer it that way and then get accepted for surgery if they simply say they will kill themselves if their demands are not met?Is that how you think it works? Isn't that for doctors, psychologists to assess based on detailed evaluation of the patient over an extended period of time? Who the hell are you to say no?I am mystified as to your objection to surgery on some sort of ideological principle. If it is genuinely deemed the best course of action for the patient (in the absence of superior and less drastic alternatives that may or may not appear at some later date) - Why should it be removed as an option? That isn't how it works. As you full know.

Is that what you think the symptoms of transsexualism are? A desire to "act like" a member of the opposite sex? I would say the reason someone is contemplating taking their own life is very relevant to why it is they are contemplating taking their own life.How can it not be? If human beings were wholly logical automatons I doubt transgenderism would be an issue for anyone any more than Mac having a deep psychological conviction that it is a PC is a widespread problem.Fortunately humans are not wholly logical automatons. But this does mean we need to find ways to tackle issues of human subjectivity without simply asserting that such issues are illogical.

Ringo writes: The fallacy assumed here is that one part of the body is the same as what another part of the body is.Now, far be it for me to assume what Ringo is thinking should be the overriding part, but as for me, I'll take the mind every time.Edited by xongsmith, : grammar

That's the opposite of what I've been saying. Whatever way anybody wants to act, let them act that way. Don't tell them as a child that they don't want to wear that or play with that toy. Divorce their behaviour from their genitals and they're less likely to feel uncomfortable with their genitals. If somebody is contemplating suicide because he lost his job, giving him a new job is only a partial solution. The real problem is his idea that suicide is the solution to his problems. Chances are he'll soon have another problem that demands the same solution.

You edited for grammar and I still have no idea what you're trying to say.

He's saying that, if we're using body parts to define a person, he'd rather choose the mind as the defining part than the genitalia.I rather agree.

Thanks for the clarification. Of course, I've been saying all along that we should not be defining persons at all. Using the word "female" to describe a person doesn't define her nor does her behaviour define her. Her definition is wholly in her own mind. We, as a society, can only influence - for good or for bad - how it gets in there.

But transsexualism isn't about "acting that way" is it? It's about self-identity. It's about a mind-body mismatch.To use a rather extreme comparison to make the mind-body mismatch point: If you woke up one day to find yourself in the body of a baboon would others agreeing to treat you as a human be enough to resolve your plight?Or would you think that resolving your mind-body mismatch might be a preferable solution? If surgery could resolve the issue wouldn't you opt for it? If I woke up to find myself in a body that I felt made any life impossible to live (e.g. completely paralysed) I might well prefer death.If I could change that body the need to contemplate death as a solution would obviously vanish.

Is it?I asked that question back in Message 26 and I didn't get any response. Allow me to repeat:

quote:

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So where does that idea of a "wrong body" come from? What creates the "internal identity"?

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How is that different from somebody who wants to have a healthy leg amputated because it "feels wrong"?

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Is there such a thing as a white man trapped in a black man's body? Would race reassignment surgery be the solution?

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You're assuming that the body is wrong and needs to be changed. Why not change the mind instead? It isn't obvious at all. Next week, your girlfriend would leave you because you mutilated your genitals - and suicide would be the solution again.