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Author Topic:   If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature....
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 96 of 708 (717689)
01-30-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by JRTjr01
01-27-2014 12:48 AM


Re: Please, let's get on with it!?!?!
JRTjr01 writes:
Are you going to stick with "There is no absolute truth?
Yup.
JRTjr01 writes:
In which case you’re denying any (pardon the pun) ‘real’ possibility of ‘Absolute Truth’.
No. I'm denying the possibility that you can know it absolutely.
JRTjr01 writes:
Are you going to go with the possibility that absolute truth may exist; however, you doubt it?
Yup. If it does exist, you can't know what it is, so it might as well not exist.
JRTjr01 writes:
I’ll take on either one.
You'll take both. There's no contradiction.
JRTjr01 writes:
Absolute:
4. undoubted;
Everything should be doubted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by JRTjr01, posted 01-27-2014 12:48 AM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Dogmafood, posted 01-31-2014 7:43 AM ringo has replied
 Message 101 by JRTjr01, posted 02-02-2014 8:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 708 (717754)
01-31-2014 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Dogmafood
01-31-2014 7:43 AM


Re: Please, let's get on with it!?!?!
ProtoTypical writes:
Are you saying that we can not know for certain that today is the day after yesterday or other simple facts that are absolutely true?
You couldn't have picked a worse example. I often don't know what day it is.
ProtoTypical writes:
Is it not absolutely true that I have written these words?
I'm fairly certain that I'm reading them. Who wrote them is less certain.
ProtoTypical writes:
Are you not absolutely certain that you are alive?
No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Dogmafood, posted 01-31-2014 7:43 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Dogmafood, posted 01-31-2014 1:58 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 100 of 708 (717787)
02-01-2014 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Dogmafood
01-31-2014 1:58 PM


Re: Please, let's get on with it!?!?!
ProtoTypical writes:
Isn't today always the day after yesterday? Isn't this absolutely true?
It's defined as true. It's trivially true.
ProtoTypical writes:
What does belief have to do with truth?
Perception has everything to do with what we think is true. What we do - i.e. "reality" - is based on what we perceive as true, not on what "is" true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Dogmafood, posted 01-31-2014 1:58 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Dogmafood, posted 02-03-2014 8:29 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 103 of 708 (717953)
02-03-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by JRTjr01
02-02-2014 8:51 PM


Re: Everything????? should be doubted!?!?!?
JRTjr01 writes:
ringo writes:
Everything should be doubted.
Well, I doubt that.
Good for you. That's a start.
JRTjr01 writes:
Because, unless you can convince me that they are not contradictory, I will continue to state that they are (in fact) contradictory statements.
I'm not here to convince you of anything.
I have explained why there is no contradiction: until evidence of Bigfoot is shown I will say there is no Bigfoot; until evidence of absolute truth is shown I will say there is no absolute truth. There remains a possibility that Bigfoot exists and a possibility that absolute truth exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by JRTjr01, posted 02-02-2014 8:51 PM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by JRTjr01, posted 02-15-2014 11:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 708 (717956)
02-03-2014 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Dogmafood
02-03-2014 8:29 AM


Re: Perceiving reality
ProtoTypical writes:
When we say that any atom with one electron is a hydrogen atom is that a tautology?
An atom with one proton is called "hydrogen". That's its name. It's no more an absolute truth than your screen name is.
ProtoTypical writes:
Is F=MA not always true?
Always? Until forever is over, how can we know about always?
ProtoTypical writes:
Are you saying that there is no connection between what we perceive is real and reality?
Sure there's a connection but not an absolute one-to-one relationship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Dogmafood, posted 02-03-2014 8:29 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Dogmafood, posted 02-04-2014 8:01 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 110 of 708 (718085)
02-04-2014 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Dogmafood
02-04-2014 8:01 AM


Re: Perceiving reality
ProtoTypical writes:
I am nearly convinced that your position is correct although for some reason it seems to me that there must be some aspect to reality that is universal.
Being nearly convinced is as close as you should get.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Dogmafood, posted 02-04-2014 8:01 AM Dogmafood has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 112 of 708 (719796)
02-18-2014 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by JRTjr01
02-15-2014 11:25 PM


Re: We come back to:
JRTjr01 writes:
If you’re not ‘absolutely’ sure that your statements are correct then there is the possibility that I am correct and that you are the one in error.
Of course. As I've said, there is always a possibility that I am wrong or that you are wrong or that anybody else is wrong. That's exactly why I say there is no absolute truth. If you can come up with an example of an absolute truth where there is absolutely no chance of you being wrong, by all means present it.
JRTjr01 writes:
Because you are trying awful hard to get me to accept that: There is no absolute truth. There is only what most people agree on. for not trying to convince me of anything.
I'm not trying to convince you. Somebody else reading this might understand it a little better but I don't think you will. You're too absolutely convinced that you're absolutely right.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by JRTjr01, posted 02-15-2014 11:25 PM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by JRTjr01, posted 02-25-2014 3:19 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 114 of 708 (720611)
02-25-2014 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by JRTjr01
02-25-2014 3:19 AM


Re: Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?!?!? ;-}
JRTjr01 writes:
I have provided an example of ‘Absolute Truth’; it’s called the law of non-contradiction
The law of non-contradiction is trivial. It revolves around the definition of "not" - like 2 is defined as the sum of 1 plus 1.
Give us an actual practical real-world example of "Absolute Truth".
JRTjr01 writes:
I use the term ‘objectively’ here because ‘sub objective’ ‘Truth’ is just that ‘sub objective’.
What does "sub objective" mean? Do you mean "subjective"?
JRTjr01 writes:
As of yet, I have not seen any evidence that something that is ‘objectively’ ‘True’ can, at the same time and in the same way, be ‘objectively’ ‘Faults’.
There are many things that are neither objectively true nor objectively false, like the length of a two-by-four. That's why the law of non-contradiction isn't very useful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by JRTjr01, posted 02-25-2014 3:19 AM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by JRTjr01, posted 03-09-2014 12:43 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 116 of 708 (721558)
03-09-2014 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by JRTjr01
03-09-2014 12:43 AM


Re: Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?!?!? ;-}
JRTjr01 writes:
Have you ever tried to use a hammer as a screw drive; it’s not very useful either.
I always use a hammer to start a wood screw. It's an old carpenter's trick.
JRTjr01 writes:
The law of non-contradiction is a very useful tool in many areas of science including theology....
Theology is not science.
As I said, the "law of non-contradiction" is trivial. "A" and "not A" can not both be true at the same time because "not A" is defined as the opposite of A. There's no profound truth involved, only definition.
If you have any examples of "absolute truth" that don't depend on trivial definitions, by all means roll them out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by JRTjr01, posted 03-09-2014 12:43 AM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by JRTjr01, posted 03-09-2014 11:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 119 of 708 (721628)
03-10-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by JRTjr01
03-09-2014 11:36 PM


Re: Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?!?!? ;-}
JRTjr01 writes:
You seem to be awfully sure of a lot of things for believing that Everything should be doubted.
Doubt helps us weed out the bad ideas. It makes us more sure of our conclusions, not less.
JRTjr01 writes:
You can’t do ‘Science’ if two contradictory things could be true at the same time in the same way.
As I've mentioned, most things don't have a simple either/or, true/false dichotomy. Science can determine the length of a two-by-four or the distance to a star quite nicely without reference to the law of non-contradiction.
So, do you have any examples of absolute truth besides the law of non-contradiction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by JRTjr01, posted 03-09-2014 11:36 PM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by JRTjr01, posted 03-17-2014 2:49 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 123 of 708 (722157)
03-17-2014 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by JRTjr01
03-17-2014 2:49 AM


Re: Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?!?!? ;-}
JRTjr01 writes:
In other words; to truly ‘doubt everything’ one would have to doubt the validity of everything; therefore you would have to doubt that you had to doubt everything.
You love chasing your tail, don't you? You should try EvolutionFairyTale. They love that kind of argument over there.
Doubt doesn't mean never making a decision. It means never being over-sure of your decisions. At some point you have to decide whether your decision is working.
JRTjr01 writes:
However, the problem with ‘Absolute Truth’ is it is in effect whether we acknowledge its presence or not.
IF absolute truth was in effect, it wouldn't make any difference whether we acknowledged it or not. However, you have not established yet that there is such a thing as "absolute truth" beyond trivial definitions such as "black is black and white is white". it may be "absolutely" true that black can not be white but is that a useful truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by JRTjr01, posted 03-17-2014 2:49 AM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 03-20-2014 2:26 PM ringo has replied
 Message 127 by JRTjr01, posted 03-23-2014 3:41 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 125 of 708 (722478)
03-21-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Phat
03-20-2014 2:26 PM


Re: Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?!?!? ;-}
Phat writes:
Some think that humans are best left alone in order to fulfill their destiny and maximize their potential.
The God of the Bible can't seem to make up His own mind about that. He's always saying He's there for you but when it comes time to move the furniture He's out of town.
As Billy Graham put it, "God always answers prayer. Sometimes the answer is 'no'."
I can do that too: I promise you a million dollars. (The cheque is in the mail.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Phat, posted 03-20-2014 2:26 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 129 of 708 (722626)
03-23-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by JRTjr01
03-23-2014 3:41 AM


Re: Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?!?!? ;-}
JRTjr01 writes:
ringo writes:
Doubt doesn't mean never making a decision. It means never being over-sure of your decisions. At some point you have to decide whether your decision is working.
I absolutely agree; of course, this is just the opposite of ‘doubting everything’.
No it isn't. Doubting everything continues after we make a decision. Asking yourself if the decision was a good one is doubt.
JRTjr01 writes:
to ‘doubt everything’ is to not accept anything as true.
Exactly. Something is "true" only if it works in the given situation. It might not work in another situation, so it is "false" in that situation.
JRTjr01 writes:
You can hold on to the idea that ‘the Law of Non-Contradiction’ is somehow ‘trivial’, that’s your prerogative; but don’t expect me to treat it as anything less than paramount.
I don't expect anything from you.
JRTjr01 writes:
if you buy a can of White paint at the store, and when you get it home and open it and it turns out to be Black paint, you thing that may make a difference?
That's not a case of black is white; it's a case of black being mistaken for white.
That's why we should doubt everything. Does the can labeled White really contain white paint? I doubt it. If I didn't, I'd just stick a brush in it and slap it on the wall without checking.
JRTjr01 writes:
I have already shown you two other ‘real world’ instances of how ‘the Law of Non-Contradiction’ works from examples you gave me.
So show us some examples of "absolute truth" that don't depend on the Law of Non-contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by JRTjr01, posted 03-23-2014 3:41 AM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by JRTjr01, posted 03-24-2014 12:56 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 134 of 708 (722703)
03-24-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by JRTjr01
03-24-2014 12:56 AM


Re: Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?!?!? ;-}
JRTjr01 writes:
We haven’t been able to get passed the Law of Non-Contradiction because you keep contradicting your own statements.
You may be missing the subtlety but there's no contradiction.
JRTjr01 writes:
And what gets me is; you recognize that what you’re saying is circular reasoning because you accused me of ‘chasing my tail’ when I was pointing out the ridiculousness of ‘Doubting Everything’.
I say you're chasing your tail because your reasoning is circular. Everything you say is based on the assumption of absolute truth.
JRTjr01 writes:
... you seam awful sure that you’re right about ‘Doubting Everything’; which, of course, is a contradiction in and of itself.
I've already explained why it isn't. Let me try again:
When we form a hypothesis about anything, we automatically doubt that it's correct. That's why we call it a hypothesis instead of The Truth. When a hypothesis passes our testing, we become more confident that it approaches "truth". However, we are always testing our hypotheses. We are never completely sure that our theories are The Truth. We always doubt their perfection.
People like you, who believe in Absolute Truth, are wrong so often because you don't doubt your conclusions enough.
So can you, once and for all, give us any examples of "absolute truth" that are not trivial? I doubt it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by JRTjr01, posted 03-24-2014 12:56 AM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by JRTjr01, posted 03-26-2014 6:58 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 137 of 708 (723069)
03-26-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by JRTjr01
03-26-2014 6:58 AM


Re: Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?!?!? ;-}
JRTjr01 writes:
Are you absolutely sure there is ‘no contradiction’??
I've told you before, if I mean absolutely, I'll say absolutely.
JRTjr01 writes:
ringo writes:
When we form a hypothesis about anything, we automatically doubt that it's correct.
Actually, when I form a hypothesis (based on all available evidence) about something I automatically assume it to be ‘true’ until I can convince myself, or someone else can convince me, otherwise.
That's not how science and critical thinking work. When we have tested a hypothesis with all available evidence we look for more evidence. Scientists try to falsify their own hypothesies. (If they don't do it themselves, somebody else will do it for them.)
JRTjr01 writes:
Many people have gotten themselves in ‘Scientific Hot Water’ (so-of-speak) because they have thrown out a presupposition as ‘Fact’ only to find out they did not know enough about the situation to make that claim, and it turned out to be either invalid or not ‘true’ in all situations/respects.
That's exactly what I'm saying; they didn't doubt their conclusions enough.
JRTjr01 writes:
However, there is a difference in ‘doubting the perfection’ of a ‘hypothesis’ and doubting the vary foundations of reality.
How so? Everything we know about reality is based on imperfect hypotheses. How could we get perfect knowledge?
JRTjr01 writes:
In other words, when I look up into the night sky and see (with my naked eye) only a few hundred thousand stars (or what looks to be only a few hundred thousand stars) that does not prompt me to doubt that there are more stars and even galaxies full of stars beyond what I can see.
You have it backwards. You should doubt that all you see is all that exists.
JRTjr01 writes:
I personally, in my discussions with you, have not stated that something is ‘Absolutely True’ and you have proved that I was wrong; Have I??
That's the problem. I keep asking you for examples of absolute truth and you keep ducking the question. I can't prove you're wrong until you say something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by JRTjr01, posted 03-26-2014 6:58 AM JRTjr01 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by JRTjr01, posted 03-28-2014 9:51 AM ringo has replied

  
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