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Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I don't know, as the poster in question has not been able to get passed his first premise, the universe exists. I would just like to point out that it is not I who can not get past the first premise.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I know that my mind exists. And from the first truth all others shall flow.
But how do you know any other mind other than your own does exist? By using the same senses that tell me that my own mind exists. The same way that I know that I have more than one finger.
Such as? Shall we start again?
quote: I think that certainty plays as much a part in being rational as does uncertainty. So even while we should be careful about being certain we are certain that this is true. While we are uncertain as to whether we see a tiger in the bush we are certain that we should behave as if there is one.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
A placebo is basically nothing but your mind thinks it's something so it works. The placebo has a real effect. We call it the placebo effect.
That's the only "reality" there is - within your mind. If there was some "absolute reality" outside your mind, you'd have no way to distinguish it from a dream or a hallucination. There are ways to distinguish between dreams, hallucinations and reality. The reality that my mind perceives is caused by the reality that exists even if my perception is wrong. The lsd hallucinations are caused by the real lsd. Examining the perceptions of many observers is the primary way of distinguishing the validity of the perceptions. However, knowing the truth is a separate question from there being a truth.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Absolute truth is what is being discussed. Well it is now. And it has gone absolutely nowhere!
Go back to where JRT and Ringo started the whole thing and you will see this. Message 49 quote: Message 58 quote: Message 60quote: See? Just verifiable truth.
Message 64quote: And then begins the long discussion about absolute truth that I mentioned that served as a distraction to the original point being made, which was that the universe can be said to exist.
If we aren't talking about absolute truth as opposed to just plain old being 'true' then why does everyone keep bandying around the term "absolute"....? Because some people enjoy arguing about it, I suppose.
I'm happy to apply the term 'true' to pretty much everything you have mentioned. But not "absolute truth". For all the reasons already mentioned. Simples.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I can give evidence both for the existence of God and that He operated outside of our universe...Do you agree that there is enough scientific evidence to state that: The universe is real ? I'll agree that the discussion did get dragged down a considerable o rabbit hole. But JRT offered a 10 page word document when I asked him to layout his proof rather than drag me on a post by post mega argument. I'm not sure we missed much by taking the detour.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
But JRT offered a 10 page word document when I asked him to layout his proof rather than drag me on a post by post mega argument. True, but on the other hand maybe something novel to argue about might have reared its head.
I'm not sure we missed much by taking the detour. As long as you're not absolutely not sure, we're cool...
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Well it is now. And it has gone absolutely nowhere! On the contrary, I have proved that you must exist. Rejoice!
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
The lsd hallucinations are caused by the real lsd. Yes, which could produce the result that only the lsd is real. I don't think either you are ringo are getting anywhere with this.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I don't think either you are ringo are getting anywhere with this. The conversation has been a good exercise in attempting to verbalize something that I know intuitively. Thereby causing scrutiny of the perceived knowledge so its been good for that at least. If this is a debate and I am sure of my position and ringo doubts his position then I guess I must be the winner.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
It's the mind that produces the effect, not the placebo. The doctor could say, "I have given you a drug," and that would produce the same effect whether he gave you anything or not.
And my point is that a placebo, despite not having an active chemical is a real thing because it induces your mind to produce a chemical effect. NoNukes writes:
Placebos are an example of effects produced entirely in the mind.
Placebos are not evidence of non-reality.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
I have had experiences that I have no idea whether they were dreams or "reality".
There are ways to distinguish between dreams, hallucinations and reality. ProtoTypical writes:
So sez your philosophy.
The reality that my mind perceives is caused by the reality that exists even if my perception is wrong.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 378 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I have had experiences that I have no idea whether they were dreams or "reality". The important fact is that you had the experience and that something caused it. So even if it was a dream then it was a real dream. The dream was caused by real things. No one has answered how it could be otherwise. The other key point that has gone unanswered is that there must be something to be right or wrong about. Fuzzy 2x4s and all. There are at least 4 dimensions and time sets every event in stone.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
The entire notion of cause and effect is a product of your imagination. As are Mod ringo and myself. Nothing exists but your mind.
Can you absolutely know this is not the case? How have you achieved what Descarte and all who came after have failed to do? If thete were a nobel prize in philosophy then you apparently deserve it!!
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Straggler Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
I readily concede that it is only the last 200 plus posts that have been about absolute truth. Prior to that it might have been about something else but its so long ago I had forgotten all about it.
My conscious-being-impetsonation-program isnt what it used to be...
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
ProtoTypical writes:
That's your belief. How is it different from the belief that God must be real because believers have "real" experiences? How is a believer's experience of God different from my dream?
The important fact is that you had the experience and that something caused it. So even if it was a dream then it was a real dream. ProtoTypical writes:
On the contrary, nobody has established any real link between psychological experiences and anything ouside the psyche.
The dream was caused by real things. No one has answered how it could be otherwise. ProtoTypical writes:
Nobody can disprove that any more than they can disprove the existence of God. Lack of disproof doesn't prove existence.
The other key point that has gone unanswered is that there must be something to be right or wrong about.
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