If God Ever Stopped Intervening In Nature....

I would just like to point out that it is not I who can not get past the first premise.

And from the first truth all others shall flow. By using the same senses that tell me that my own mind exists. The same way that I know that I have more than one finger. Shall we start again?

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Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality"

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I think that certainty plays as much a part in being rational as does uncertainty. So even while we should be careful about being certain we are certain that this is true. While we are uncertain as to whether we see a tiger in the bush we are certain that we should behave as if there is one.

The placebo has a real effect. We call it the placebo effect. There are ways to distinguish between dreams, hallucinations and reality. The reality that my mind perceives is caused by the reality that exists even if my perception is wrong. The lsd hallucinations are caused by the real lsd. Examining the perceptions of many observers is the primary way of distinguishing the validity of the perceptions.However, knowing the truth is a separate question from there being a truth.

Well it is now. And it has gone absolutely nowhere! Message 49

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I can give evidence both for the existence of God and that He operated outside of our universe...Do you agree that there is enough scientific evidence to state that: The universe is real ?

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Message 58

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If it ain't evident...it ain't evidence

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Message 60

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I would say that evidence must be based on objective truth...
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Truth:

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that which is true; statement, ect. That accords with fact or reality; an established or verified fact, principle, ect.

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See? Just verifiable truth. Message 64

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You seem to be using the term "objective truth" in the sense of "absolute truth".

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There is no absolute truth.

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And then begins the long discussion about absolute truth that I mentioned that served as a distraction to the original point being made, which was that the universe can be said to exist. Because some people enjoy arguing about it, I suppose. Simples.

I'll agree that the discussion did get dragged down a considerable o rabbit hole. But JRT offered a 10 page word document when I asked him to layout his proof rather than drag me on a post by post mega argument. I'm not sure we missed much by taking the detour.

True, but on the other hand maybe something novel to argue about might have reared its head. As long as you're not absolutely not sure, we're cool...

On the contrary, I have proved that you must exist. Rejoice!

Yes, which could produce the result that only the lsd is real. I don't think either you are ringo are getting anywhere with this.

The conversation has been a good exercise in attempting to verbalize something that I know intuitively. Thereby causing scrutiny of the perceived knowledge so its been good for that at least.If this is a debate and I am sure of my position and ringo doubts his position then I guess I must be the winner.

It's the mind that produces the effect, not the placebo. The doctor could say, "I have given you a drug," and that would produce the same effect whether he gave you anything or not. Placebos are an example of effects produced entirely in the mind.

I have had experiences that I have no idea whether they were dreams or "reality". So sez your philosophy.

The important fact is that you had the experience and that something caused it. So even if it was a dream then it was a real dream. The dream was caused by real things. No one has answered how it could be otherwise.The other key point that has gone unanswered is that there must be something to be right or wrong about. Fuzzy 2x4s and all. There are at least 4 dimensions and time sets every event in stone.

The entire notion of cause and effect is a product of your imagination. As are Mod ringo and myself. Nothing exists but your mind.Can you absolutely know this is not the case? How have you achieved what Descarte and all who came after have failed to do?If thete were a nobel prize in philosophy then you apparently deserve it!!

I readily concede that it is only the last 200 plus posts that have been about absolute truth. Prior to that it might have been about something else but its so long ago I had forgotten all about it.My conscious-being-impetsonation-program isnt what it used to be...

That's your belief. How is it different from the belief that God must be real because believers have "real" experiences? How is a believer's experience of God different from my dream? On the contrary, nobody has established any real link between psychological experiences and anything ouside the psyche. Nobody can disprove that any more than they can disprove the existence of God. Lack of disproof doesn't prove existence.